llvm dev - Jul 2016 - Suggestion to Stop Cross Posting Discussions

> On Jul 5, 2016, at 4:23 PM, C Bergström via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 6:05 AM, Martin J. O'Riordan via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>>
wrote:
> For ISO C++ we long ago created an 'all' list for topics that were
organisational and not technically specific to an aspect of the Standard such as
Library, or Core, or Extensions, etc..  For the most part I think that since the
early 1990s when these lists started, the 'all'
reflector/distribution-list has worked really well.  I still get all the ISO C++
mailings, and the signal to noise ratio is pretty good in this regard.
> 
> For topics such as GIT versus SVN hosting, or code of conduct, and such
like (even social events!); the use of a separate list is well justified and
means that we can automatically filter and manage our emails in a more useful
way.
> 
> Hal's 'community' suggestion is essentially the same thing as
the ISO C++ 'all' list, and it has worked really well over the years and
I'd definitely favour that approach.
> 
> +11111
> 
> I'm tired of all the stupid/bikeshed OT non-developer discussions that
happen on what imnsho should be a *development ONLY* list.
I don't have a good suggestion to avoid the bikeshed discussion, but it is
not off topic: git/svn is used by every active llvm developer on a day to day
basis!

- Matthias

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On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 7:31 AM, Matthias Braun <mbraun at apple.com>
wrote:
>
> On Jul 5, 2016, at 4:23 PM, C Bergström via llvm-dev <
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 6:05 AM, Martin J. O'Riordan via llvm-dev <
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
>> For ISO C++ we long ago created an 'all' list for topics that
were
>> organisational and not technically specific to an aspect of the
Standard
>> such as Library, or Core, or Extensions, etc..  For the most part I
think
>> that since the early 1990s when these lists started, the 'all'
>> reflector/distribution-list has worked really well.  I still get all
the
>> ISO C++ mailings, and the signal to noise ratio is pretty good in this
>> regard.
>>
>> For topics such as GIT versus SVN hosting, or code of conduct, and such
>> like (even social events!); the use of a separate list is well
justified
>> and means that we can automatically filter and manage our emails in a
more
>> useful way.
>>
>> Hal's 'community' suggestion is essentially the same thing
as the ISO C++
>> 'all' list, and it has worked really well over the years and
I'd definitely
>> favour that approach.
>>
>
> +11111
>
> I'm tired of all the stupid/bikeshed OT non-developer discussions that
> happen on what imnsho should be a *development ONLY* list.
>
>
> I don't have a good suggestion to avoid the bikeshed discussion, but it
is
> not off topic: git/svn is used by every active llvm developer on a day to
> day basis!
>
Is this reply troll bait? How can a discussion to help clean things up
spawn yet a discussion on what should be cleaned up... ummm.. seriously?

git vs svn - Put all //your//(community) religious feelings aside, it's
more of an infrastructure issue than anything. Any half intelligent
developer will make the migration (some begrudgingly) and after some time
forget whatever was the old way.

Things for a developer list:
Code style - which can spawn lots of bikeshed (llvm seems to have something
that works already)
API design - ...
RFC on refactoring or some bigger change
New developer questions - Hand holding for the first few stupid questions..
it just happens

Why people feel so strongly about blue vs green or 9 vs 10 or whatever
other nit picky little thing is beyond me.
----------------------------
Speaking as one of the openmp-dev moderators, at the very least STOP cross
posting to that list. In fact, if I see another post with 50 cc's that gets
tagged or something else not strictly OMP-dev or user related == rejected.
If the person keeps doing it I'll ban them. Until this point I've let
other
moderators handle those types of things, but if someone *doesn't* agree
with that sort of strict policy, tell me now and remove me as a moderator.
----------------------------
In general the noise on these lists is *so bad* that I typically discourage
any developer of ours (PathScale) from subscribing or replying to *any*
thread. (I must stay active for those rare gems of content)


/* I admit I'm guilty of some noise as well, but it's mostly meant to be
funny - Along the lines of "when in Rome" - if however the list was
always
on topic and near zero noise, I'd personally have never piled on */

@chandler - in your CoC is there a way to define what's -dev related and
what should go to #hottub/-alt?

I bet this thread will get 50 posts before it doesn't conclude with
consensus... sooo..

return;
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I am thankful for all the moderation work on the mailing lists and I think we
all agreed that cross posting was a bad idea in this instance.

In each case getting a consistent coding style accepted, designing good APIs and
using the best version control tool available all affect me as a developer so it
is worth discussing. I can deal with style inconsistencies, or bad APIs it's
often just am annoyance but not a deal breaker. It just slightly affects my
productivity. The same is true for version control strategies. There is no
reason to dismiss it as "just infrastructure". I hope we can at least
agree to disagree on what is relevant for llvm-dev to keep this thread in
control.

- Matthias
> On Jul 5, 2016, at 4:50 PM, C Bergström <cbergstrom at pathscale.com>
wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 7:31 AM, Matthias Braun <mbraun at apple.com
<mailto:mbraun at apple.com>> wrote:
> 
>> On Jul 5, 2016, at 4:23 PM, C Bergström via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 6:05 AM, Martin J. O'Riordan via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>>
wrote:
>> For ISO C++ we long ago created an 'all' list for topics that
were organisational and not technically specific to an aspect of the Standard
such as Library, or Core, or Extensions, etc..  For the most part I think that
since the early 1990s when these lists started, the 'all'
reflector/distribution-list has worked really well.  I still get all the ISO C++
mailings, and the signal to noise ratio is pretty good in this regard.
>> 
>> For topics such as GIT versus SVN hosting, or code of conduct, and such
like (even social events!); the use of a separate list is well justified and
means that we can automatically filter and manage our emails in a more useful
way.
>> 
>> Hal's 'community' suggestion is essentially the same thing
as the ISO C++ 'all' list, and it has worked really well over the years
and I'd definitely favour that approach.
>> 
>> +11111
>> 
>> I'm tired of all the stupid/bikeshed OT non-developer discussions
that happen on what imnsho should be a *development ONLY* list.
> 
> I don't have a good suggestion to avoid the bikeshed discussion, but it
is not off topic: git/svn is used by every active llvm developer on a day to day
basis!
> 
> Is this reply troll bait? How can a discussion to help clean things up
spawn yet a discussion on what should be cleaned up... ummm.. seriously?
> 
> git vs svn - Put all //your//(community) religious feelings aside, it's
more of an infrastructure issue than anything. Any half intelligent developer
will make the migration (some begrudgingly) and after some time forget whatever
was the old way.
> 
> Things for a developer list:
> Code style - which can spawn lots of bikeshed (llvm seems to have something
that works already)
> API design - ...
> RFC on refactoring or some bigger change
> New developer questions - Hand holding for the first few stupid questions..
it just happens
> 
> Why people feel so strongly about blue vs green or 9 vs 10 or whatever
other nit picky little thing is beyond me.
> ----------------------------
> Speaking as one of the openmp-dev moderators, at the very least STOP cross
posting to that list. In fact, if I see another post with 50 cc's that gets
tagged or something else not strictly OMP-dev or user related == rejected. If
the person keeps doing it I'll ban them. Until this point I've let other
moderators handle those types of things, but if someone *doesn't* agree with
that sort of strict policy, tell me now and remove me as a moderator.
> ----------------------------
> In general the noise on these lists is *so bad* that I typically discourage
any developer of ours (PathScale) from subscribing or replying to *any* thread.
(I must stay active for those rare gems of content)
> 
> 
> /* I admit I'm guilty of some noise as well, but it's mostly meant
to be funny - Along the lines of "when in Rome" - if however the list
was always on topic and near zero noise, I'd personally have never piled on
*/
> 
> @chandler - in your CoC is there a way to define what's -dev related
and what should go to #hottub/-alt?
> 
> I bet this thread will get 50 posts before it doesn't conclude with
consensus... sooo..
> 
> return;
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