llvm dev - May 2016 - Resuming the discussion of establishing an LLVM code of conduct

+1 for this TL;DR suggestion - you can guarantee most people would read 
< 7 short bullet points.

Cheers,

-Neil.

On 06/05/16 15:53, Arnaud Allard de Grandmaison via llvm-dev
wrote:
> For what it's worth, I think this is an improved version of the CoC, 
> and I'm OK with it. Thanks to Chandler and all those who have been 
> working on it.
>
> It's not perfect --- and will never be --- but that's a good base
to
> settle on. We can always evolve it later based on real life feedback.
>
> My only suggestion for improvement would be to add something like this 
> at the top of the document (in rst parlance):
>
> +The following behaviours are expected in the LLVM community:
> +
> +* `be friendly and patient`_,
> +
> +* `be welcoming`_,
> +
> +* `be considerate`_,
> +
> +* `be respectful`_,
> +
> +* `be careful in the words that you choose and be kind to others`_,
> +
> +* `when we disagree, try to understand why`_.
> +
>
> First, this is the first thing you see when pointing a web brower to 
> the CoC page. Second, this would give a TL;DR summary of the CoC, 
> hopefully addressing the "Wall of Text" effect. And last, it acts
as a
> table of content, and people interested in the nitty-gritty details / 
> context can click the links or just continue to read the full text.
>
> My 2 cents,
> --
> Arnaud
>
> On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Krzysztof Parzyszek via llvm-dev 
> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
>
>     On 5/5/2016 4:19 PM, Tanya Lattner via llvm-dev wrote:
>
>         Having a code of conduct like this is just as bad as having no
>         code of conduct at all. It trivializes the importance of a
>         code of conduct and its pretty much impossible to enforce.
>
>
>     Code of conduct should reflect the community standards, not define
>     them. These standards come from the minds of the members of the
>     community. A CoC that states this much and outlines the core
>     principles underlying these standards is a statement of faith in
>     the community itself. It stresses the fact that the community can
>     enforce its own standards, and in doing so be guided by the core
>     principle of respect, and not by a list of prohibited behaviors.
>
>     I believe that it will behoove each member treat others with
>     respect and to oppose unacceptable actions. When the enforcement
>     of such standards comes from the genuine conviction, and not
>     simply from a document, it strenghtens the community as a whole.
>     Pointing to a document only invites searching for potential loopholes.
>
>     -Krzysztof
>
>     -- 
>     Qualcomm Innovation Center, Inc. is a member of Code Aurora Forum,
>     hosted by The Linux Foundation
>     _______________________________________________
>     LLVM Developers mailing list
>     llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
>     http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/attachments/20160506/6ff14157/attachment.html>

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 10:55 PM, Neil Henning via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> +1 for this TL;DR suggestion - you can guarantee most people would read
< 7
> short bullet points.
If this is sufficient, then why have the wall of text? Like a prologue?

I think there is still value in the "wall of text" (although I
personally
prefer the TL;DR) : it explains the context, provides examples --- and it
seems to be important for many people in the community. The expected
behaviors should stand-out though --- that's why they are in bold font in
the wall of text, but moving them in the "prologue/ToC" and making
them
appear as links ensure no-one can miss them.


On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 4:59 PM, C Bergström <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
wrote:
> On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 10:55 PM, Neil Henning via llvm-dev
> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> > +1 for this TL;DR suggestion - you can guarantee most people would
read
> < 7
> > short bullet points.
>
> If this is sufficient, then why have the wall of text? Like a prologue?
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/attachments/20160506/5b251ed3/attachment.html>

+1 as well.  I like this suggestion a lot.

—Owen
> On May 6, 2016, at 7:55 AM, Neil Henning via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> 
> +1 for this TL;DR suggestion - you can guarantee most people would read
< 7 short bullet points.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> -Neil.
> 
> On 06/05/16 15:53, Arnaud Allard de Grandmaison via llvm-dev wrote:
>> For what it's worth, I think this is an improved version of the
CoC, and I'm OK with it. Thanks to Chandler and all those who have been
working on it.
>> 
>> It's not perfect --- and will never be --- but that's a good
base to settle on. We can always evolve it later based on real life feedback.
>> 
>> My only suggestion for improvement would be to add something like this
at the top of the document (in rst parlance):
>> 
>> +The following behaviours are expected in the LLVM community: 
>> + 
>> +* `be friendly and patient`_, 
>> + 
>> +* `be welcoming`_, 
>> + 
>> +* `be considerate`_, 
>> + 
>> +* `be respectful`_, 
>> + 
>> +* `be careful in the words that you choose and be kind to others`_, 
>> + 
>> +* `when we disagree, try to understand why`_. 
>> +
>> 
>> First, this is the first thing you see when pointing a web brower to
the CoC page. Second, this would give a TL;DR summary of the CoC, hopefully
addressing the "Wall of Text" effect. And last, it acts as a table of
content, and people interested in the nitty-gritty details / context can click
the links or just continue to read the full text.
>> 
>> My 2 cents,
>> --
>> Arnaud
>>  
>> 
>> On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Krzysztof Parzyszek via llvm-dev <
<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
>> On 5/5/2016 4:19 PM, Tanya Lattner via llvm-dev wrote:
>> Having a code of conduct like this is just as bad as having no code of
conduct at all. It trivializes the importance of a code of conduct and its
pretty much impossible to enforce.
>> 
>> Code of conduct should reflect the community standards, not define
them. These standards come from the minds of the members of the community. A CoC
that states this much and outlines the core principles underlying these
standards is a statement of faith in the community itself. It stresses the fact
that the community can enforce its own standards, and in doing so be guided by
the core principle of respect, and not by a list of prohibited behaviors.
>> 
>> I believe that it will behoove each member treat others with respect
and to oppose unacceptable actions. When the enforcement of such standards comes
from the genuine conviction, and not simply from a document, it strenghtens the
community as a whole. Pointing to a document only invites searching for
potential loopholes.
>> 
>> -Krzysztof
>> 
>> -- 
>> Qualcomm Innovation Center, Inc. is a member of Code Aurora Forum,
hosted by The Linux Foundation
>> _______________________________________________
>> LLVM Developers mailing list
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
>> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
<http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> LLVM Developers mailing list
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
>> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
<http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/attachments/20160506/e64518bb/attachment.html>

+1.  I don't feel a strong need for it, but if this addresses some of 
the concerns about verbosity, I see no harm in it.

On 05/06/2016 09:16 AM, Owen Anderson via llvm-dev
wrote:
> +1 as well.  I like this suggestion a lot.
>
> —Owen
>
>> On May 6, 2016, at 7:55 AM, Neil Henning via llvm-dev 
>> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
>>
>> +1 for this TL;DR suggestion - you can guarantee most people would 
>> read < 7 short bullet points.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> -Neil.
>>
>> On 06/05/16 15:53, Arnaud Allard de Grandmaison via llvm-dev wrote:
>>> For what it's worth, I think this is an improved version of the
CoC,
>>> and I'm OK with it. Thanks to Chandler and all those who have
been
>>> working on it.
>>>
>>> It's not perfect --- and will never be --- but that's a
good base to
>>> settle on. We can always evolve it later based on real life
feedback.
>>>
>>> My only suggestion for improvement would be to add something like 
>>> this at the top of the document (in rst parlance):
>>>
>>> +The following behaviours are expected in the LLVM community:
>>> +
>>> +* `be friendly and patient`_,
>>> +
>>> +* `be welcoming`_,
>>> +
>>> +* `be considerate`_,
>>> +
>>> +* `be respectful`_,
>>> +
>>> +* `be careful in the words that you choose and be kind to
others`_,
>>> +
>>> +* `when we disagree, try to understand why`_.
>>> +
>>>
>>> First, this is the first thing you see when pointing a web brower
to
>>> the CoC page. Second, this would give a TL;DR summary of the CoC, 
>>> hopefully addressing the "Wall of Text" effect. And last,
it acts as
>>> a table of content, and people interested in the 
>>> nitty-gritty details / context can click the links or just continue
>>> to read the full text.
>>>
>>> My 2 cents,
>>> --
>>> Arnaud
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Krzysztof Parzyszek via llvm-dev 
>>> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>     On 5/5/2016 4:19 PM, Tanya Lattner via llvm-dev wrote:
>>>
>>>         Having a code of conduct like this is just as bad as having
>>>         no code of conduct at all. It trivializes the importance of
>>>         a code of conduct and its pretty much impossible to
enforce.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Code of conduct should reflect the community standards, not
>>>     define them. These standards come from the minds of the members
>>>     of the community. A CoC that states this much and outlines the
>>>     core principles underlying these standards is a statement of
>>>     faith in the community itself. It stresses the fact that the
>>>     community can enforce its own standards, and in doing so be
>>>     guided by the core principle of respect, and not by a list of
>>>     prohibited behaviors.
>>>
>>>     I believe that it will behoove each member treat others with
>>>     respect and to oppose unacceptable actions. When the
enforcement
>>>     of such standards comes from the genuine conviction, and not
>>>     simply from a document, it strenghtens the community as a
whole.
>>>     Pointing to a document only invites searching for potential
>>>     loopholes.
>>>
>>>     -Krzysztof
>>>
>>>     -- 
>>>     Qualcomm Innovation Center, Inc. is a member of Code Aurora
>>>     Forum, hosted by The Linux Foundation
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     LLVM Developers mailing list
>>>     llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>
>>>     http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> LLVM Developers mailing list
>>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>>> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> LLVM Developers mailing list
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
>> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/attachments/20160506/903a5f33/attachment.html>