C Bergström via llvm-dev
2016-May-05 15:53 UTC
[llvm-dev] Resuming the discussion of establishing an LLVM code of conduct
Proposed alternative DRAFT -------------------------- LLVM Code of Conduct (LCoC) Prologue: LLVM community as a whole strives for equality and respect in all areas. With this in mind, we want to establish a few words that help(s)? everyone understand what to do if there is ever questions or conflicts. Motto: Be respectful, have fun and do great engineering. LLVM Community members: People in and around the LLVM community - this crosses borders and lots of forms of communication. Community moderators: The community[1] will vote for three moderators who will hold the term for 1 year. Moderators are to help with dispute resolution, conflicts and other situations as-needed. They should uphold the community values, motto and strive to be unbiased, objective, fair and apply common sense principles to the situation as well as if any action is needed. Moderator assistance: There's no way to create an exhaustive list of scenarios, but in general if you feel uncomfortable with someone in the LLVM community it's best to send a friendly email and include as much as possible to - _____ at ____.__ [1] How do define who can vote - not everyone is on the mailing list.. this in itself is tricky..
Renato Golin via llvm-dev
2016-May-05 16:05 UTC
[llvm-dev] Resuming the discussion of establishing an LLVM code of conduct
On 5 May 2016 at 16:53, C Bergström <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:> Prologue: LLVM community as a whole strives for equality and respect > in all areas. With this in mind, we want to establish a few words that > help(s)? everyone understand what to do if there is ever questions or > conflicts."few words that may help"? I think Fosdem's phrase is sublime: "we expect [...] everybody to behave respectfully towards all others, including those that are different or think differently from yourself."> Motto: Be respectful, have fun and do great engineering.Also: code should be evaluated solely on technical merits.> Moderators are to help with dispute resolution, conflicts and other > situations as-needed. They should uphold the community values, motto > and strive to be unbiased, objective, fair and apply common sense > principles to the situation as well as if any action is needed.This is perfect. No need to list what actions could be taken etc. The conferences can have an additional clause regarding health and safety.> Moderator assistance: There's no way to create an exhaustive list of > scenarios, but in general if you feel uncomfortable with someone in > the LLVM community it's best to send a friendly email and include as > much as possible to - _____ at ____.__Better not to focus on "someone", but with "some behaviour". We don't want which-hunts.> [1] How do define who can vote - not everyone is on the mailing list.. > this in itself is tricky..For now, the *only* viable thing we can do is commit access, though I know it means practically nothing. I haven't got a better idea, though. --renato
Krzysztof Parzyszek via llvm-dev
2016-May-05 18:57 UTC
[llvm-dev] Resuming the discussion of establishing an LLVM code of conduct
FWIW, I like this version a lot better. Keep it simple. -Krzysztof On 5/5/2016 10:53 AM, C Bergström via llvm-dev wrote:> Proposed alternative > > DRAFT > -------------------------- > LLVM Code of Conduct (LCoC) > > Prologue: LLVM community as a whole strives for equality and respect > in all areas. With this in mind, we want to establish a few words that > help(s)? everyone understand what to do if there is ever questions or > conflicts. > > Motto: Be respectful, have fun and do great engineering. > > LLVM Community members: People in and around the LLVM community - this > crosses borders and lots of forms of communication. > > Community moderators: The community[1] will vote for three moderators > who will hold the term for 1 year. > > Moderators are to help with dispute resolution, conflicts and other > situations as-needed. They should uphold the community values, motto > and strive to be unbiased, objective, fair and apply common sense > principles to the situation as well as if any action is needed. > > Moderator assistance: There's no way to create an exhaustive list of > scenarios, but in general if you feel uncomfortable with someone in > the LLVM community it's best to send a friendly email and include as > much as possible to - _____ at ____.__ > > [1] How do define who can vote - not everyone is on the mailing list.. > this in itself is tricky.. > _______________________________________________ > LLVM Developers mailing list > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org > http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev >-- Qualcomm Innovation Center, Inc. is a member of Code Aurora Forum, hosted by The Linux Foundation
Joachim Durchholz via llvm-dev
2016-May-05 19:10 UTC
[llvm-dev] Resuming the discussion of establishing an LLVM code of conduct
Am 05.05.2016 um 18:05 schrieb Renato Golin:>> [1] How do define who can vote - not everyone is on the mailing list.. >> this in itself is tricky.. > > For now, the *only* viable thing we can do is commit access, though I > know it means practically nothing.No voting. Establish consensus. Just as for the code of conduct. (I'm not seeing a consensus emerge on the CoC yet, just two camps who keep repeating their position.)
Tanya Lattner via llvm-dev
2016-May-05 21:19 UTC
[llvm-dev] Resuming the discussion of establishing an LLVM code of conduct
Having a code of conduct like this is just as bad as having no code of conduct at all. It trivializes the importance of a code of conduct and its pretty much impossible to enforce. After observing what is happening in many other communities in regards to women in technology, I would be much more likely to participate in a community that actually has a well thought out and meaningful code of conduct. -Tanya> On May 5, 2016, at 8:53 AM, C Bergström via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote: > > Proposed alternative > > DRAFT > -------------------------- > LLVM Code of Conduct (LCoC) > > Prologue: LLVM community as a whole strives for equality and respect > in all areas. With this in mind, we want to establish a few words that > help(s)? everyone understand what to do if there is ever questions or > conflicts. > > Motto: Be respectful, have fun and do great engineering. > > LLVM Community members: People in and around the LLVM community - this > crosses borders and lots of forms of communication. > > Community moderators: The community[1] will vote for three moderators > who will hold the term for 1 year. > > Moderators are to help with dispute resolution, conflicts and other > situations as-needed. They should uphold the community values, motto > and strive to be unbiased, objective, fair and apply common sense > principles to the situation as well as if any action is needed. > > Moderator assistance: There's no way to create an exhaustive list of > scenarios, but in general if you feel uncomfortable with someone in > the LLVM community it's best to send a friendly email and include as > much as possible to - _____ at ____.__ > > [1] How do define who can vote - not everyone is on the mailing list.. > this in itself is tricky.. > _______________________________________________ > LLVM Developers mailing list > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org > http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
Renato Golin via llvm-dev
2016-May-05 21:49 UTC
[llvm-dev] Resuming the discussion of establishing an LLVM code of conduct
On 5 May 2016 at 22:19, Tanya Lattner via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:> Having a code of conduct like this is just as bad as having no code of conduct at all. It trivializes the importance of a code of conduct and its pretty much impossible to enforce.The same way you feel about this code, we feel about the alternative. It's only a matter of perspective.> After observing what is happening in many other communities in regards to women in technology, I would be much more likely to participate in a community that actually has a well thought out and meaningful code of conduct.I think I have expressed enough of my desire to get women into STEM. If not, let me reiterate: 50/50, nothing less will do. However, I wonder how much of that has ever had the risk to leaking into our community? My argument to Hal is that, none of that happened overnight. For that to happen to us, our community would have to be permissive to abusive behaviour for months, or years, and we'd notice a lot sooner than that. The worse cases I've seen was the kernel and docker, both fairly loose communities, where it didn't seem to have *any* consensus on behaviour whatsoever. We're not like that. When kernel folks come to us and start swearing, we ask them to stop, then we ignore their emails. That's better than and CoC could ever ask for. So, here's a turn on the tables... * Can anyone prove that a CoC would be more effective against abuse than the already very effective and cost free method we use? * Can anyone come up with a threat that the current consensus would not protect us from, and at the same time, a CoC would be the *only* alternative? * Can anyone prove that, just writing "we don't condone abuse, let us know" is in *any* way (including legal) worse than a text that was written by someone else and people seemed to like? Unless we have clear answers to those questions, Occam's razor tells me we should just be our good selves and show people with behaviour, not words, how nice we are. cheers, --renato
Joachim Durchholz via llvm-dev
2016-May-05 23:44 UTC
[llvm-dev] Resuming the discussion of establishing an LLVM code of conduct
Am 05.05.2016 um 23:19 schrieb Tanya Lattner:> Having a code of conduct like this is just as bad as having no code > of conduct at all. It trivializes the importance of a code of conduct > and its pretty much impossible to enforce.Regardless of what kind CoC you have: if it comes to having to enforce it, the community has stopped being open and welcoming. So I think this approach is attacking the problem that you have after you already lost.> After observing what is happening in many other communities in > regards to women in technology, I would be much more likely to > participate in a community that actually has a well thought out and > meaningful code of conduct.First, let me state that I'm fully aware that women are subject to harrassment. It's one of those sad facts in life. Still, I don't see how one can write a CoC that does not single out a group. Prohibit harrassment against women, and you single out non-women as potential offenders. The same goes for any other rule. Worse: if you forbid something, people will start getting creative about how to abuse it. There are some genius trolls out there that will stay just below the threshold of actual harrassment (enforceable rules need to be spelt out clearly, which means that these trolls will stay below that threshold by a hair's breadth). There are people with weak arguments who will abuse anti-harrassment rules to fling accusations; they never get credibility, but they successfully sidetracked a technical discussion into a behavioural one. Don't forbid things. That's just going to give people ideas. Instead, encourage things. And give those who feel harrassed or threatened a mail address to turn to. Don't say anything that even vaguely hints that an offender is going to get punished; instead, say that the address is for advice and help. Word it constructively, not restrictively. It's called framing, and it is an enormously powerful social tool.
C Bergström via llvm-dev
2016-May-06 03:17 UTC
[llvm-dev] Resuming the discussion of establishing an LLVM code of conduct
On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 5:19 AM, Tanya Lattner <tanyalattner at llvm.org> wrote:> Having a code of conduct like this is just as bad as having no code of conduct at all. It trivializes the importance of a code of conduct and its pretty much impossible to enforce. > > After observing what is happening in many other communities in regards to women in technology, I would be much more likely to participate in a community that actually has a well thought out and meaningful code of conduct.That's a pretty rude reply without actually having explained your position very well, I'm offended. My simplistic approach outlines a vision, states it's mission and gives a mechanism to clearly and easily resolve issues. What more do you want? (It's imho impractical to list *everything*) Further, it's simple and easy to read - Why must I face a wall of text when I just want to read code. I respect your opinion, but lack of words doesn't mean it wasn't actually well thought out. The "best" design is the most simple one which gets the job done... I don't need extraneous verbosity just you want it
Krzysztof Parzyszek via llvm-dev
2016-May-06 13:47 UTC
[llvm-dev] Resuming the discussion of establishing an LLVM code of conduct
On 5/5/2016 4:19 PM, Tanya Lattner via llvm-dev wrote:> Having a code of conduct like this is just as bad as having no code of conduct at all. It trivializes the importance of a code of conduct and its pretty much impossible to enforce.Code of conduct should reflect the community standards, not define them. These standards come from the minds of the members of the community. A CoC that states this much and outlines the core principles underlying these standards is a statement of faith in the community itself. It stresses the fact that the community can enforce its own standards, and in doing so be guided by the core principle of respect, and not by a list of prohibited behaviors. I believe that it will behoove each member treat others with respect and to oppose unacceptable actions. When the enforcement of such standards comes from the genuine conviction, and not simply from a document, it strenghtens the community as a whole. Pointing to a document only invites searching for potential loopholes. -Krzysztof -- Qualcomm Innovation Center, Inc. is a member of Code Aurora Forum, hosted by The Linux Foundation