Linux Virtualization - Sep 2014 - Standardizing an MSR or other hypercall to get an RNG seed?

On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 1:21 PM, Nadav Amit <nadav.amit at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> On Sep 19, 2014, at 9:42 PM, Andy Lutomirski <luto at amacapital.net>
wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Christopher Covington
>> <cov at codeaurora.org> wrote:
>>> On 09/17/2014 10:50 PM, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
>>>> Hi all-
>>>>
>>>> I would like to standardize on a very simple protocol by which
a guest
>>>> OS can obtain an RNG seed early in boot.
>>>>
>>>> The main design requirements are:
>>>>
>>>> - The interface should be very easy to use.  Linux, at least,
will
>>>> want to use it extremely early in boot as part of kernel ASLR. 
This
>>>> means that PCI and ACPI will not work.
>>>
>>> How do non-virtual systems get entropy this early? RDRAND/Padlock?
Truerand?
>>> Could hypervisors and simulators simply make sure these work?
>>>
>>
>> If RDRAND is available, then Linux, at least, will use it.  The rest
>> are too complicated for early use.  Linux on x86 plays some vaguely
>> clever games with rdtsc and poking at the i8254 port.
>>
>> I think that these tricks are even less useful as a guest than they
>> are on metal, and we can use paravirt mechanisms to make guest early
>> boot rngs much stronger.
>
> Sorry for interrupting, as I understand the discussion tries to be generic.
>
> However, it sounds to me that at least for KVM, it is very easy just to
emulate the RDRAND instruction. The hypervisor would report to the guest that
RDRAND is supported in CPUID and the emulate the instruction when guest executes
it. KVM already traps guest #UD (which would occur if RDRAND executed while it
is not supported) - so this scheme wouldn?t introduce additional overhead over
RDMSR.
Because then guest user code will think that rdrand is there and will
try to use it, resulting in abysmal performance.

--Andy
>
> Nadav


-- 
Andy Lutomirski
AMA Capital Management, LLC

On 09/19/2014 01:46 PM, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
>>
>> However, it sounds to me that at least for KVM, it is very easy just to
emulate the RDRAND instruction. The hypervisor would report to the guest that
RDRAND is supported in CPUID and the emulate the instruction when guest executes
it. KVM already traps guest #UD (which would occur if RDRAND executed while it
is not supported) - so this scheme wouldn?t introduce additional overhead over
RDMSR.
> 
> Because then guest user code will think that rdrand is there and will
> try to use it, resulting in abysmal performance.
> 
Yes, the presence of RDRAND implies a cheap and inexhaustible entropy
source.

	-hpa

Il 19/09/2014 22:46, Andy Lutomirski ha scritto:
>> >
>> > However, it sounds to me that at least for KVM, it is very easy
just to emulate the RDRAND instruction. The hypervisor would report to the guest
that RDRAND is supported in CPUID and the emulate the instruction when guest
executes it. KVM already traps guest #UD (which would occur if RDRAND executed
while it is not supported) - so this scheme wouldn?t introduce additional
overhead over RDMSR.
> Because then guest user code will think that rdrand is there and will
> try to use it, resulting in abysmal performance.
KVM could expose a CPUID leaf that says "RDRAND is not there, but if you
execute it the hypervisor will try to do something slow but sane".

Paolo

On 09/19/2014 05:46 PM, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
> On 09/19/2014 01:46 PM, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
>>>
>>> However, it sounds to me that at least for KVM, it is very easy
just to emulate the RDRAND instruction. The hypervisor would report to the guest
that RDRAND is supported in CPUID and the emulate the instruction when guest
executes it. KVM already traps guest #UD (which would occur if RDRAND executed
while it is not supported) - so this scheme wouldn?t introduce additional
overhead over RDMSR.
>>
>> Because then guest user code will think that rdrand is there and will
>> try to use it, resulting in abysmal performance.
>>
> 
> Yes, the presence of RDRAND implies a cheap and inexhaustible entropy
> source.
A guest kernel couldn't make it look like RDRAND is not present to guest
userspace?

Christopher

-- 
Employee of Qualcomm Innovation Center, Inc.
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