CentOS - Jul 2018 - Which is better? Microsoft Exchange 2016 or Linux-based SMTP Servers?

On 07/18/2018 04:05 PM, Valeri Galtsev wrote:
> 
> 
> On 07/18/18 14:36, Johnny Hughes wrote:
>> On 07/18/2018 01:58 PM, Valeri Galtsev wrote:
>>
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> But are you guys really telling you think the calendaring /
scheduling
>>>> for individual users and the main corporate account, etc. ..
are
>>>> working
>>>> well enough with any Linux solution.
>>>
>>> I must confess, my servers are FreeBSD, but I'm quite sure the
same is
>>> doable easily on Linux.
>>>
>>> We use for calendars Owncloud (may migrate to nextcloud in some
future
>>> to come). That authenticates against LDAP.
>>
>> And does that calendar solution allow for things like:
>>
>> 1)? Allowing all users in the organization to see users calendars and
>> see when they are free to schedule a meeting with them.
> 
> Yes at least about a part of it: calendars can be shared with some
> people or with everybody (which we didn't do, so I may be not 100%
> presenting "experimental fact" here). Not certain about
"free/not free"
> mapped on calendars though.
> 
>>
>> 2) Allow for designated people to schedule meetings for others (ie,
your
>> secretary/office assistant can schedule meetings for people, etc.)
> 
> Yes, you can share calendar with anybody, and can set any set of choices
> 
> can read
> can write
> can "re-share" your calendar
> 
> You can share stuff to external people, and set individual
> authentication for them independent of our system (in general, it is not
> just calendars, but we use it for mostly synchronizing between all of
> your devices, and also sharing: files, calendars, address book; it can
> also be bookmarks, and there are variety of plugins expanding what else
> can be accessed/synchronized via web/dav)
> 
>>
>> 3) Allow a calendar to schedule shared items .. like meeting rooms,
>> shared vehicles, etc.? So that people can check those out for specifc
>> time windows, etc.
> 
> No, but for resource booking (if I read the question correctly) we use
> mrbs (https://mrbs.sourceforge.io/). I know, that is not
"integrated"
> for you to have everything in one place. I never had time to look for
> extention/plugin to suck from mrbs booked slot into one's calendar.
> 
>>
>> Those are just a couple of minor things a lot of solutions can't do
>>
>> And do they work with imap, etc. 
> 
> No, owncloud/nextcloud don't work with IMAP as far as I know. Mail
> server is separate issue. Zimbra in that respect IS "integrated
> collaborative environment". And so is Kolab. They both are lacking
> per-user spam preferences. One more thing that added some minus for each
> of them in my estimate what to choose is: behind each of them there is
> commercial company. And that in my looooong experience significantly
> increases the chance one day openly available incarnation of each may
> become no longer available for us, and I will have to find replacement
> in a rush and find the way to migrate to it, and the more sophisticated
> the thing is, the trickier the migration will be.
> 
> My answers are mostly about owncloud which we use for quite some time.
> Nextcloud is fork of owncloud, and to my regret nextcloud doesn't work
> with postgresql, only with mysql/MariaDB, whereas owncloud works with
> postgresql as well as with mysql/MariaDB (still we have some reasons to
> migrate to nextcloud at some point).
> 
> I hope, someone with more knowledge will chime in.
> 
> 
Don't get me wrong.  I've run qmail, postfix, and zimbra mail servers
with IMAP, along with webmail front ends (roundcude, squirrel mail,
etc), for windows, mac and linux clients for several companies (all on
CentOS of course :D) .. I just don't think that calendaring that I have
seen is as user friendly as google calendar (for example).  But I'm all
for people running mail servers on CentOS (or any other Linux) if they
want !
> 
>> Zimbra does not work very well with
>> Thunderbird and Lighting (for example) .. many solutions don't work
with
>> Windows or Mac clients, etc.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> For mail we use postfix, dovecot and maia for spam filtering (the
last
>>> harnesses spamassassin, clamav and few other things).
>>>
>>> Of course, zimbra you mentioned earlier in the thread (or was it
not
>>> you?), and Kolab provide more corporate-like collaboration
environments,
>>> but I shied away from them as I set myself a goal to give users
>>> individual handle on spam/virus filtering in email, and neither of
them
>>> has per-user spam preferences (take it with the grain of salt, I
might
>>> have missed something...)
>>>
>>> Just my $0.02.
>>>
>> <snip>
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On 07/19/18 09:14, Johnny Hughes wrote:
> On 07/18/2018 04:05 PM, Valeri Galtsev wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 07/18/18 14:36, Johnny Hughes wrote:
>>> On 07/18/2018 01:58 PM, Valeri Galtsev wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>>> But are you guys really telling you think the calendaring /
scheduling
>>>>> for individual users and the main corporate account, etc.
.. are
>>>>> working
>>>>> well enough with any Linux solution.
>>>>
>>>> I must confess, my servers are FreeBSD, but I'm quite sure
the same is
>>>> doable easily on Linux.
>>>>
>>>> We use for calendars Owncloud (may migrate to nextcloud in some
future
>>>> to come). That authenticates against LDAP.
>>>
>>> And does that calendar solution allow for things like:
>>>
>>> 1)? Allowing all users in the organization to see users calendars
and
>>> see when they are free to schedule a meeting with them.
>>
>> Yes at least about a part of it: calendars can be shared with some
>> people or with everybody (which we didn't do, so I may be not 100%
>> presenting "experimental fact" here). Not certain about
"free/not free"
>> mapped on calendars though.
>>
>>>
>>> 2) Allow for designated people to schedule meetings for others (ie,
your
>>> secretary/office assistant can schedule meetings for people, etc.)
>>
>> Yes, you can share calendar with anybody, and can set any set of
choices
>>
>> can read
>> can write
>> can "re-share" your calendar
>>
>> You can share stuff to external people, and set individual
>> authentication for them independent of our system (in general, it is
not
>> just calendars, but we use it for mostly synchronizing between all of
>> your devices, and also sharing: files, calendars, address book; it can
>> also be bookmarks, and there are variety of plugins expanding what else
>> can be accessed/synchronized via web/dav)
>>
>>>
>>> 3) Allow a calendar to schedule shared items .. like meeting rooms,
>>> shared vehicles, etc.? So that people can check those out for
specifc
>>> time windows, etc.
>>
>> No, but for resource booking (if I read the question correctly) we use
>> mrbs (https://mrbs.sourceforge.io/). I know, that is not
"integrated"
>> for you to have everything in one place. I never had time to look for
>> extention/plugin to suck from mrbs booked slot into one's calendar.
>>
>>>
>>> Those are just a couple of minor things a lot of solutions
can't do
>>>
>>> And do they work with imap, etc.
>>
>> No, owncloud/nextcloud don't work with IMAP as far as I know. Mail
>> server is separate issue. Zimbra in that respect IS "integrated
>> collaborative environment". And so is Kolab. They both are lacking
>> per-user spam preferences. One more thing that added some minus for
each
>> of them in my estimate what to choose is: behind each of them there is
>> commercial company. And that in my looooong experience significantly
>> increases the chance one day openly available incarnation of each may
>> become no longer available for us, and I will have to find replacement
>> in a rush and find the way to migrate to it, and the more sophisticated
>> the thing is, the trickier the migration will be.
>>
>> My answers are mostly about owncloud which we use for quite some time.
>> Nextcloud is fork of owncloud, and to my regret nextcloud doesn't
work
>> with postgresql, only with mysql/MariaDB, whereas owncloud works with
>> postgresql as well as with mysql/MariaDB (still we have some reasons to
>> migrate to nextcloud at some point).
>>
>> I hope, someone with more knowledge will chime in.
>>
>>
> 
> Don't get me wrong.  I've run qmail, postfix, and zimbra mail
servers
> with IMAP, along with webmail front ends (roundcude, squirrel mail,
> etc), for windows, mac and linux clients for several companies (all on
> CentOS of course :D) .. I just don't think that calendaring that I have
> seen is as user friendly as google calendar (for example).  But I'm all
> for people running mail servers on CentOS (or any other Linux) if they
> want !
No, I'm not getting you wrong. You gave nicely put set of properties 
[some]one may be interested to know of, which I tried to answer. Also: 
Thanks, Arif, for correcting/expanding in the other post what I said 
about owncloud/nextcloud. That was extremely helpful!

<rant>
As far as google anything goes, not everybody volunteers one's 
information into paws of google (and quite likely one or more of 3 
letter agencies collecting information that way). I know (call it 
educated guess) that about 70% of messages I send are ending up in 
google databases whether I want it or not. Someone said quite some time 
ago: you don't need to recruit spies anymore, just roll out "free"
services, and information will trickle to you. I am old enough to know 
what collection of information on everybody leads to (Hitler Germany, 
Stalin Russia, ...), but I also know that the worst lesson of history 
is: people do not learn lessons of history. So, I do the best I can do: 
roll out services people I work for may need, and avoid by any means 
advertising google whatever myself, I just keep neutral when that 
surfaces in discussions with my people.
</rant>


Valeri
> 
>>
>>> Zimbra does not work very well with
>>> Thunderbird and Lighting (for example) .. many solutions don't
work with
>>> Windows or Mac clients, etc.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> For mail we use postfix, dovecot and maia for spam filtering
(the last
>>>> harnesses spamassassin, clamav and few other things).
>>>>
>>>> Of course, zimbra you mentioned earlier in the thread (or was
it not
>>>> you?), and Kolab provide more corporate-like collaboration
environments,
>>>> but I shied away from them as I set myself a goal to give users
>>>> individual handle on spam/virus filtering in email, and neither
of them
>>>> has per-user spam preferences (take it with the grain of salt,
I might
>>>> have missed something...)
>>>>
>>>> Just my $0.02.
>>>>
>>> <snip>
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS mailing list
> CentOS at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
> 
-- 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On 19/07/2018 15:57, Valeri Galtsev wrote:
> <rant>
> As far as google anything goes, not everybody volunteers one's
> information into paws of google (and quite likely one or more of 3
> letter agencies collecting information that way). I know (call it
> educated guess) that about 70% of messages I send are ending up in
> google databases whether I want it or not. Someone said quite some
> time ago: you don't need to recruit spies anymore, just roll out
> "free" services, and information will trickle to you. I am old
enough
> to know what collection of information on everybody leads to (Hitler
> Germany, Stalin Russia, ...), but I also know that the worst lesson of
> history is: people do not learn lessons of history. So, I do the best
> I can do: roll out services people I work for may need, and avoid by
> any means advertising google whatever myself, I just keep neutral when
> that surfaces in discussions with my people.
> </rant>
Well said. I feel that too many people today have forgotten (or, more
likely, never learned) these lessons from history. People give away
their personal and supposedly private information too easily and, I feel
certain, will come to regret it (some already have come to regret it).


-- 
Mark Rousell

Valeri Galtsev wrote:
<snip>
<agree on being interested in the calander, etc,
info>
> <rant>
> As far as google anything goes, not everybody volunteers one's
> information into paws of google (and quite likely one or more of 3 letter
> agencies collecting information that way). I know (call it educated guess)
> that about 70% of messages I send are ending up in google databases
> whether I want it or not. Someone said quite some time ago: you don't
need
> to recruit spies anymore, just roll out "free" services, and
information
> will trickle to you. I am old enough to know what collection of
> information on everybody leads to (Hitler Germany, Stalin Russia, ...),
> but I also know that the worst lesson of history is: people do not learn
> lessons of history. So, I do the best I can do: roll out services people I
> work for may need, and avoid by any means advertising google whatever
> myself, I just keep neutral when that surfaces in discussions with my
> people. </rant>
>
Yep. That's why I refuse to have a google account, and why I recommended
against it for business use. I have no knowledge, but even if you pay
google for a "private" business account, I have next to no trust that
they
do not have something scanning for info to sell, or market to - we all
*know* they do that to all free email accounts.

"First, do no harm"? Long gone, eaten by their marketing dept, which
is
why the signal-to-noise ratio has gone *way* down in the laft five years.

I'll stop the rant now, too, it's OT for the list.

     mark

On 07/19/2018 09:57 AM, Valeri Galtsev wrote:
> 
> <rant>
> As far as google anything goes, not everybody volunteers one's
> information into paws of google (and quite likely one or more of 3
> letter agencies collecting information that way). I know (call it
> educated guess) that about 70% of messages I send are ending up in
> google databases whether I want it or not. Someone said quite some time
> ago: you don't need to recruit spies anymore, just roll out
"free"
> services, and information will trickle to you. I am old enough to know
> what collection of information on everybody leads to (Hitler Germany,
> Stalin Russia, ...), but I also know that the worst lesson of history
> is: people do not learn lessons of history. So, I do the best I can do:
> roll out services people I work for may need, and avoid by any means
> advertising google whatever myself, I just keep neutral when that
> surfaces in discussions with my people.
> </rant>
Your points are valid for sure .. but if you are not encrypting your
email, then all of it is likely being scanned and saved anyway.  Any
router along the way can log packets and see whatever is transmitted
that is not encrypted.

Most of the world uses android phones (I think it is like 75% now) and
all the mail that goes there is available to google as well, right?

Not to say I like it .. I don't.  But people want it to work, work in a
user friendly way and convenient access from everywhere .. and from
their phone, their home pc, while traveling, etc.




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On 07/19/2018 07:14 AM, Johnny Hughes wrote:
> On 07/18/2018 04:05 PM, Valeri Galtsev wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 07/18/18 14:36, Johnny Hughes wrote:
>>> On 07/18/2018 01:58 PM, Valeri Galtsev wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>>> But are you guys really telling you think the calendaring /
scheduling
>>>>> for individual users and the main corporate account, etc.
.. are
>>>>> working
>>>>> well enough with any Linux solution.
>>>>
>>>> I must confess, my servers are FreeBSD, but I'm quite sure
the same is
>>>> doable easily on Linux.
>>>>
>>>> We use for calendars Owncloud (may migrate to nextcloud in some
future
>>>> to come). That authenticates against LDAP.
>>>
>>> And does that calendar solution allow for things like:
>>>
>>> 1)  Allowing all users in the organization to see users calendars
and
>>> see when they are free to schedule a meeting with them.
>>
>> Yes at least about a part of it: calendars can be shared with some
>> people or with everybody (which we didn't do, so I may be not 100%
>> presenting "experimental fact" here). Not certain about
"free/not free"
>> mapped on calendars though.
>>
>>>
>>> 2) Allow for designated people to schedule meetings for others (ie,
your
>>> secretary/office assistant can schedule meetings for people, etc.)
>>
>> Yes, you can share calendar with anybody, and can set any set of
choices
>>
>> can read
>> can write
>> can "re-share" your calendar
>>
>> You can share stuff to external people, and set individual
>> authentication for them independent of our system (in general, it is
not
>> just calendars, but we use it for mostly synchronizing between all of
>> your devices, and also sharing: files, calendars, address book; it can
>> also be bookmarks, and there are variety of plugins expanding what else
>> can be accessed/synchronized via web/dav)
>>
>>>
>>> 3) Allow a calendar to schedule shared items .. like meeting rooms,
>>> shared vehicles, etc.  So that people can check those out for
specifc
>>> time windows, etc.
>>
>> No, but for resource booking (if I read the question correctly) we use
>> mrbs (https://mrbs.sourceforge.io/). I know, that is not
"integrated"
>> for you to have everything in one place. I never had time to look for
>> extention/plugin to suck from mrbs booked slot into one's calendar.
>>
>>>
>>> Those are just a couple of minor things a lot of solutions
can't do
>>>
>>> And do they work with imap, etc.
>>
>> No, owncloud/nextcloud don't work with IMAP as far as I know. Mail
>> server is separate issue. Zimbra in that respect IS "integrated
>> collaborative environment". And so is Kolab. They both are lacking
>> per-user spam preferences. One more thing that added some minus for
each
>> of them in my estimate what to choose is: behind each of them there is
>> commercial company. And that in my looooong experience significantly
>> increases the chance one day openly available incarnation of each may
>> become no longer available for us, and I will have to find replacement
>> in a rush and find the way to migrate to it, and the more sophisticated
>> the thing is, the trickier the migration will be.
>>
>> My answers are mostly about owncloud which we use for quite some time.
>> Nextcloud is fork of owncloud, and to my regret nextcloud doesn't
work
>> with postgresql, only with mysql/MariaDB, whereas owncloud works with
>> postgresql as well as with mysql/MariaDB (still we have some reasons to
>> migrate to nextcloud at some point).
>>
>> I hope, someone with more knowledge will chime in.
>>
>>
>
> Don't get me wrong.  I've run qmail, postfix, and zimbra mail
servers
> with IMAP, along with webmail front ends (roundcude, squirrel mail,
> etc), for windows, mac and linux clients for several companies (all on
> CentOS of course :D) .. I just don't think that calendaring that I have
> seen is as user friendly as google calendar (for example).  But I'm all
> for people running mail servers on CentOS (or any other Linux) if they
> want !
I can't use google calendar because it used tracking cookies which I block.

So it doesn't work for me.

Would actually love to see a distributed / federated calendaring 
platform developed, that I suspect would do well.

What I mean is Company A can choose to federate with Company B when 
needed to allow cross-scheduling when needed while both still maintain 
complete ownership of their calendar data.

On 07/19/18 17:51, Alice Wonder wrote:
> On 07/19/2018 07:14 AM, Johnny Hughes wrote:
>> On 07/18/2018 04:05 PM, Valeri Galtsev wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 07/18/18 14:36, Johnny Hughes wrote:
>>>> On 07/18/2018 01:58 PM, Valeri Galtsev wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>>> But are you guys really telling you think the
calendaring /
>>>>>> scheduling
>>>>>> for individual users and the main corporate account,
etc. .. are
>>>>>> working
>>>>>> well enough with any Linux solution.
>>>>>
>>>>> I must confess, my servers are FreeBSD, but I'm quite
sure the same is
>>>>> doable easily on Linux.
>>>>>
>>>>> We use for calendars Owncloud (may migrate to nextcloud in
some future
>>>>> to come). That authenticates against LDAP.
>>>>
>>>> And does that calendar solution allow for things like:
>>>>
>>>> 1)? Allowing all users in the organization to see users
calendars and
>>>> see when they are free to schedule a meeting with them.
>>>
>>> Yes at least about a part of it: calendars can be shared with some
>>> people or with everybody (which we didn't do, so I may be not
100%
>>> presenting "experimental fact" here). Not certain about
"free/not free"
>>> mapped on calendars though.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2) Allow for designated people to schedule meetings for others
(ie,
>>>> your
>>>> secretary/office assistant can schedule meetings for people,
etc.)
>>>
>>> Yes, you can share calendar with anybody, and can set any set of
choices
>>>
>>> can read
>>> can write
>>> can "re-share" your calendar
>>>
>>> You can share stuff to external people, and set individual
>>> authentication for them independent of our system (in general, it
is not
>>> just calendars, but we use it for mostly synchronizing between all
of
>>> your devices, and also sharing: files, calendars, address book; it
can
>>> also be bookmarks, and there are variety of plugins expanding what
else
>>> can be accessed/synchronized via web/dav)
>>>
>>>>
>>>> 3) Allow a calendar to schedule shared items .. like meeting
rooms,
>>>> shared vehicles, etc.? So that people can check those out for
specifc
>>>> time windows, etc.
>>>
>>> No, but for resource booking (if I read the question correctly) we
use
>>> mrbs (https://mrbs.sourceforge.io/). I know, that is not
"integrated"
>>> for you to have everything in one place. I never had time to look
for
>>> extention/plugin to suck from mrbs booked slot into one's
calendar.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Those are just a couple of minor things a lot of solutions
can't do
>>>>
>>>> And do they work with imap, etc.
>>>
>>> No, owncloud/nextcloud don't work with IMAP as far as I know.
Mail
>>> server is separate issue. Zimbra in that respect IS
"integrated
>>> collaborative environment". And so is Kolab. They both are
lacking
>>> per-user spam preferences. One more thing that added some minus for
each
>>> of them in my estimate what to choose is: behind each of them there
is
>>> commercial company. And that in my looooong experience
significantly
>>> increases the chance one day openly available incarnation of each
may
>>> become no longer available for us, and I will have to find
replacement
>>> in a rush and find the way to migrate to it, and the more
sophisticated
>>> the thing is, the trickier the migration will be.
>>>
>>> My answers are mostly about owncloud which we use for quite some
time.
>>> Nextcloud is fork of owncloud, and to my regret nextcloud
doesn't work
>>> with postgresql, only with mysql/MariaDB, whereas owncloud works
with
>>> postgresql as well as with mysql/MariaDB (still we have some
reasons to
>>> migrate to nextcloud at some point).
>>>
>>> I hope, someone with more knowledge will chime in.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Don't get me wrong.? I've run qmail, postfix, and zimbra mail
servers
>> with IMAP, along with webmail front ends (roundcude, squirrel mail,
>> etc), for windows, mac and linux clients for several companies (all on
>> CentOS of course :D) .. I just don't think that calendaring that I
have
>> seen is as user friendly as google calendar (for example).? But I'm
all
>> for people running mail servers on CentOS (or any other Linux) if they
>> want !
> 
> I can't use google calendar because it used tracking cookies which I
block.
> 
> So it doesn't work for me.
> 
> Would actually love to see a distributed / federated calendaring 
> platform developed, that I suspect would do well.
Owncloud and nextcloud support federation.

Valeri
> 
> What I mean is Company A can choose to federate with Company B when 
> needed to allow cross-scheduling when needed while both still maintain 
> complete ownership of their calendar data.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS mailing list
> CentOS at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
-- 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Valeri Galtsev
Sr System Administrator
Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics
Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics
University of Chicago
Phone: 773-702-4247
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 09:57:22 -0500
Valeri Galtsev <galtsev at kicp.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> <rant>
> As far as google anything goes, not everybody volunteers one's 
> information into paws of google (and quite likely one or more of 3 
> letter agencies collecting information that way). I know (call it 
> educated guess) that about 70% of messages I send are ending up in 
> google databases whether I want it or not. Someone said quite some
> time ago: you don't need to recruit spies anymore, just roll out
> "free" services, and information will trickle to you. I am old
enough
> to know what collection of information on everybody leads to (Hitler
> Germany, Stalin Russia, ...), but I also know that the worst lesson
> of history is: people do not learn lessons of history. So, I do the
> best I can do: roll out services people I work for may need, and
> avoid by any means advertising google whatever myself, I just keep
> neutral when that surfaces in discussions with my people.
> </rant>
it's what Bertolt Brecht said, "Not everyone who shows you their teeth
is smiling."