On 10/10/2017 11:22 AM, Mark Haney wrote:> > We have this discussion on every list I've ever been, or currently are > on about every 6 months or so.? I do my best to contribute to the list > as often as I can, but I can't help people when they are deadset on > doing dangerous things.? Posts like his, and posts like yours make it > harder for me to bother trying to help those unwilling to listen.? I > don't take it from my children, and I certainly won't from adults who > won't listen. >Hi Mark, been a while since I saw you last in Asheville. The core issue in the /var/run thread is one of lack of civility. There is a civil way of calling someone to see their need for further thought and investigation; calling someone 'stupid' or 'an idiot' over something as small as /var/run directory persistence is, to my mind at least, its own brand of immaturity and will typically cause the person so being attacked to go on the defensive and harden their stance, and this is the textbook genesis of a flame. I've been involved in Unix and related pursuits long enough to know that different people consider different things to be polite.? And I've said my share of impolite things, especially back in the day when I had a Usenet leaf node over uucp and participated in news.admin and alt.flame, so I'm not being self-righteous here, just practical and realistic.? I've been plonked before, and I've plonked before.? (If anyone isn't familiar with the term 'plonk' it means to put in your killfile or ignore list, and there are a few people that have been on this list that I have killfiled in the past, several especially right around the releases of CentOS 5.6 and CentOS 6.0). So, for the last several years, I have set a protocol for myself where, if words that would be considered uncivil by most people were present in my post, or if my wording became too much of an attack over the person, I simply don't send it.? My wife and I have five children, so I'm more than a little familiar with a certain rabbit named Thumper and his famous adage "f you can't say something nice, don't say nothin' at all."? Now, I don't agree with that adage as written, as I would rather use the word 'civil' instead of 'nice,' because 'civil' doesn't mean nice.? Civil just means 'not nasty' even when you need to have 'Radical Candor.'? But I reserve that sort of 'harsh civility' for my staff here when necessary, who get a much more civil tone than my children at home would, incidentally. But my staff aren't children.? And the members of this list aren't my staff, and I will be civil to everyone on this list. I'll drop a brief note about my opinion of /var/run later, so that anyone who wants to ignore that thread before I post can do so.
On 10/11/2017 02:44 PM, Lamar Owen wrote:> On 10/10/2017 11:22 AM, Mark Haney wrote: >> >> We have this discussion on every list I've ever been, or currently >> are on about every 6 months or so.? I do my best to contribute to the >> list as often as I can, but I can't help people when they are deadset >> on doing dangerous things.? Posts like his, and posts like yours make >> it harder for me to bother trying to help those unwilling to listen.? >> I don't take it from my children, and I certainly won't from adults >> who won't listen. >> > Hi Mark, been a while since I saw you last in Asheville.Hey Lamar, long time no see.? It's been a real long time actually, left ERC in late 2009 after 3 surgeries on my feet and couldn't walk enough to do anything useful (ended up having 2 more, an elbow rebuilt and just had surgery #7 to reconstruct a knee).? We moved to Durham in 2013 and have been here since.? Just got my last 2 daughters off to Virginia Tech this fall and it's empty nest time. I still don't know what to do with all my free time.> > The core issue in the /var/run thread is one of lack of civility. > There is a civil way of calling someone to see their need for further > thought and investigation; calling someone 'stupid' or 'an idiot' over > something as small as /var/run directory persistence is, to my mind at > least, its own brand of immaturity and will typically cause the person > so being attacked to go on the defensive and harden their stance, and > this is the textbook genesis of a flame.I do agree, to a point.? Being Irish, my temper is always simmering, usually over ignorance or willful stupidity.? But, sometimes you just have to be the bad guy when people are recalcitrant.? Hence my stance in this thread.? I honestly have no problem being the bad guy if I have to be.? In this case, it was a situation where OP was already on the defensive after the first posts.? My input was much later, and was civil, even if not completely polite.? The fact remains trying slam that square peg into that round hole, despite repeated attempts to explain /why not to do it/ seems to me to be willfully stupid (or stubborn).? I made my case in my replies that forcing this issue absolutely will result in lost data and few people who get paid to do this for a living will countenance such a thing.? In a lot of ways, we view things from the perspective of our own jobs/environment/culture, putting ourselves in their position as it were.? A lot of people join the list simply to get a question answered, a lot more hang out and help when they can.? I think no one wants to see anyone put their data, or livelihood in jeopardy and certainly not with advice given by (other) professionals. Sometimes you just have to be the 'disappointed parent', and that's how I replied after a while.? Right or wrong, I stand by it.> > I've been involved in Unix and related pursuits long enough to know > that different people consider different things to be polite.? And > I've said my share of impolite things, especially back in the day when > I had a Usenet leaf node over uucp and participated in news.admin and > alt.flame, so I'm not being self-righteous here, just practical and > realistic.? I've been plonked before, and I've plonked before.? (If > anyone isn't familiar with the term 'plonk' it means to put in your > killfile or ignore list, and there are a few people that have been on > this list that I have killfiled in the past, several especially right > around the releases of CentOS 5.6 and CentOS 6.0).Heh. I haven't seen that word in a long time.? Plonk and netiquette are widely unused words these days.> > So, for the last several years, I have set a protocol for myself > where, if words that would be considered uncivil by most people were > present in my post, or if my wording became too much of an attack over > the person, I simply don't send it.? My wife and I have five children, > so I'm more than a little familiar with a certain rabbit named Thumper > and his famous adage "f you can't say something nice, don't say > nothin' at all."? Now, I don't agree with that adage as written, as I > would rather use the word 'civil' instead of 'nice,' because 'civil' > doesn't mean nice.? Civil just means 'not nasty' even when you need to > have 'Radical Candor.' But I reserve that sort of 'harsh civility' for > my staff here when necessary, who get a much more civil tone than my > children at home would, incidentally. But my staff aren't children.? > And the members of this list aren't my staff, and I will be civil to > everyone on this list. > > I'll drop a brief note about my opinion of /var/run later, so that > anyone who wants to ignore that thread before I post can do so.I get it.? I really do.? And there were times I probably should have walked away from the entire thread.? But, I want people to learn, and learn the right way (regardless of the multitude of 'right ways' in our line of work) and you just have to be very firm with those digging their heels in, if, for instance, they are in a position to do real harm, to data or otherwise. Anyway, hope all is well with you and PARI.? I need to get back down there with telescope sometime, the light pollution in RDU is just awful. -- Mark Haney Network Engineer at NeoNova 919-460-3330 option 1 mark.haney at neonova.net www.neonova.net
On 10/11/2017 04:05 PM, Mark Haney wrote:> On 10/11/2017 02:44 PM, Lamar Owen wrote: >> Hi Mark, been a while since I saw you last in Asheville. > Hey Lamar, long time no see.? ... [snip]Yeah, too long.? Come by and visit some time.>> >> The core issue in the /var/run thread is one of lack of civility. ... > I do agree, to a point.? Being Irish, my temper is always simmering, > usually over ignorance or willful stupidity.I'm Irish, too, and that's why I have to set the protocol for myself that I do, and many times I'll let a post sit in a compose window half the day before I cancel it (or send it, as the case may be). I've had to perform podondectomies too many times..... (surgical removal of foot from mouth.....) If you never put the foot in your mouth, you never have to remove it.> ? But, sometimes you just have to be the bad guy when people are > recalcitrant.? ...? Right or wrong, I stand by it.Ok, fair enough.? And I wasn't singling you out by any means; since I actually know you personally I figured you wouldn't mind my using your post as the reply point.> I get it.? I really do.? And there were times I probably should have > walked away from the entire thread.? But, I want people to learn, and > learn the right way (regardless of the multitude of 'right ways' in > our line of work) and you just have to be very firm with those digging > their heels in, if, for instance, they are in a position to do real > harm, to data or otherwise.People tend to dig in their heels when they're being dragged a direction they don't want to go....? But, again, I'm not by any means singling you out.? Some people, as I have learned the hard way with my eldest two children, just have to learn things the hard way.? I'll share my experience; but in the end some people have to lose data to understand why some things are they way they are.? And I might be doing them a favor in the long run by letting them. But maybe I'm just too fatigued these days.? I just get tired of dragging anchors and pushing chains.> > Anyway, hope all is well with you and PARI.? I need to get back down > there with telescope sometime, the light pollution in RDU is just awful. >Thanks; let me know when you come up and I'll show you around at some of things that have changed (like our Redstone rocket engine on display, and? the ATS-6 satellite on loan from the Smithsonian). Just don't try to get any information right now from our website; it's down due to a double failure on our ISP's fiber ring; redundancy works great, until you get two trees 50 miles apart that decide to crash down on your fiber within two hours of each other, taking out connectivity in both directions.? Give it a few hours. Let's take any more replies off-list, though.