Hiya everyone, Is there a way to disable a thread that has degenerated into flaming? The recent "discussion" on /var/run descended into some quite nasty places and perhaps a lid should have been put on it. This seems to happen every few weeks and is somewhat embarrassing when I'm trying to persuade people of the "active and friendly Centos community" It was a shame that no one actually read past the belligerence his original post enough to come up with a solution. It was quite clearly a problem with third party packages not coming with SELinux policies. Cheers, Andrew
On 10/10/2017 16:03, Andrew Holway wrote:> Hiya everyone, > > Is there a way to disable a thread that has degenerated into flaming? The > recent "discussion" on /var/run descended into some quite nasty places and > perhaps a lid should have been put on it. This seems to happen every few > weeks and is somewhat embarrassing when I'm trying to persuade people of > the "active and friendly Centos community"In Thunderbird, right click on a message in the thread, and click "Ignore Thread", for other mail user agents you can find a similar feature.
On 10/10/2017 11:03 AM, Andrew Holway wrote:> Hiya everyone, > > Is there a way to disable a thread that has degenerated into flaming? The > recent "discussion" on /var/run descended into some quite nasty places and > perhaps a lid should have been put on it. This seems to happen every few > weeks and is somewhat embarrassing when I'm trying to persuade people of > the "active and friendly Centos community" > > It was a shame that no one actually read past the belligerence his original > post enough to come up with a solution. It was quite clearly a problem with > third party packages not coming with SELinux policies.Also just as clearly, everyone on the list said this wasn't standard CentOS practice, the third party repo/packages OP used was not built properly and to either find a package that did, or compile from source.? At no point will anyone on this list try to fix a 'problem' by ignoring the 40+ years of UNIX design.? Liability aside, if someone doesn't like what the majority say on the list, that's their problem.? Trying to stick persistent data in /var/run isn't standard (or best) practice and, indeed, /var/run is literally designed to not be persistent.? Any sane admin wouldn't countenance that, and most of us are sane, and experienced. Let me ask, would you allow your kids to do something that was obviously dangerous?? This is the same thing.? We're here to guide those willing to learn the /best/ method of resolving problems. Some aren't willing to learn and refuse to believe the majority here know what we're talking about.? The true answer to OPs question wasn't what he wanted to hear and continued ad nauseum to insist that's what he wants to do.? Sometimes people just have to fail to learn. Most of us make a living in IT, and get paid to do things within the parameters of the systems we manage.? How hard is it to understand such a simple concept? What you insist on calling a flame war, was some of us, me included, trying to get people to understand that 1) OP is wrong trying to do it this way 2) that OPs package wasn't standard CentOS packaging and was dangerous to use on CentOS systems and 3) that there's no way any of us would offer a work around for something that will almost certainly result in lost data. OP appeared, to me at least,? to be quite immature in insisting going against how CentOS (and RHEL) is designed and would very likely have come back to the list raising hell over losing data and how it's our fault for his inability to listen to us. Don't you think that would have been a bigger blow to the 'active and friendly community' if we'd actually offered advice contrary to design/best practice?? Would you take advice from someone you know has given dangerous advice in the past? We have this discussion on every list I've ever been, or currently are on about every 6 months or so.? I do my best to contribute to the list as often as I can, but I can't help people when they are deadset on doing dangerous things.? Posts like his, and posts like yours make it harder for me to bother trying to help those unwilling to listen.? I don't take it from my children, and I certainly won't from adults who won't listen. -- Mark Haney Network Engineer at NeoNova 919-460-3330 option 1 mark.haney at neonova.net www.neonova.net
Am 10.10.2017 um 17:03 schrieb Andrew Holway <andrew.holway at gmail.com>:> Is there a way to disable a thread that has degenerated into flaming? The > recent "discussion" on /var/run descended into some quite nasty places and > perhaps a lid should have been put on it. This seems to happen every few > weeks and is somewhat embarrassing when I'm trying to persuade people of > the "active and friendly Centos community"A community has always at least "17%" of unpleasant behaviour - thats natural! The other part is very "active and friendly". Everything else is not realistic. :-)> It was a shame that no one actually read past the belligerence his original > post enough to come up with a solution. It was quite clearly a problem with > third party packages not coming with SELinux policies.-- LF
On Tue, October 10, 2017 10:22 am, Mark Haney wrote:> On 10/10/2017 11:03 AM, Andrew Holway wrote: >> Hiya everyone, >> >> Is there a way to disable a thread that has degenerated into flaming? >> The >> recent "discussion" on /var/run descended into some quite nasty places >> and >> perhaps a lid should have been put on it. This seems to happen every few >> weeks and is somewhat embarrassing when I'm trying to persuade people of >> the "active and friendly Centos community" >> >> It was a shame that no one actually read past the belligerence his >> original >> post enough to come up with a solution. It was quite clearly a problem >> with >> third party packages not coming with SELinux policies. > Also just as clearly, everyone on the list said this wasn't standard > CentOS practice, the third party repo/packages OP used was not built > properly and to either find a package that did, or compile from source.?? > At no point will anyone on this list try to fix a 'problem' by ignoring > the 40+ years of UNIX design.?? Liability aside, if someone doesn't like > what the majority say on the list, that's their problem.?? Trying to > stick persistent data in /var/run isn't standard (or best) practice and, > indeed, /var/run is literally designed to not be persistent.?? Any sane > admin wouldn't countenance that, and most of us are sane, and experienced. > > Let me ask, would you allow your kids to do something that was obviously > dangerous??? This is the same thing.?? We're here to guide those willing > to learn the /best/ method of resolving problems. Some aren't willing to > learn and refuse to believe the majority here know what we're talking > about.?? The true answer to OPs question wasn't what he wanted to hear > and continued ad nauseum to insist that's what he wants to do.?? > Sometimes people just have to fail to learn. > > Most of us make a living in IT, and get paid to do things within the > parameters of the systems we manage.?? How hard is it to understand such > a simple concept? What you insist on calling a flame war, was some of > us, me included, trying to get people to understand that 1) OP is wrong > trying to do it this way 2) that OPs package wasn't standard CentOS > packaging and was dangerous to use on CentOS systems and 3) that there's > no way any of us would offer a work around for something that will > almost certainly result in lost data. > > OP appeared, to me at least,?? to be quite immature in insisting going > against how CentOS (and RHEL) is designed and would very likely have > come back to the list raising hell over losing data and how it's our > fault for his inability to listen to us. Don't you think that would have > been a bigger blow to the 'active and friendly community' if we'd > actually offered advice contrary to design/best practice??? Would you > take advice from someone you know has given dangerous advice in the past? > > We have this discussion on every list I've ever been, or currently are > on about every 6 months or so.?? I do my best to contribute to the list > as often as I can, but I can't help people when they are deadset on > doing dangerous things.?? Posts like his, and posts like yours make it > harder for me to bother trying to help those unwilling to listen.?? I > don't take it from my children, and I certainly won't from adults who > won't listen. >Thanks, Mark! Not only I agree with all you said, but these were the same points that I was seeing in this whole thread. The OP gave me the same feeling as I have when sometimes someone comes to me to fix their system, and when I start doing what I see necessary starts direct me what I should do next. Which brings these feelings: you already failed to fix it yourself, that is why you came to get me do that, now step back and observe how it is done... Valeri> -- > Mark Haney > Network Engineer at NeoNova > 919-460-3330 option 1 > mark.haney at neonova.net > www.neonova.net > > _______________________________________________ > CentOS mailing list > CentOS at centos.org > https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
On 10/10/2017 11:22 AM, Mark Haney wrote:> > We have this discussion on every list I've ever been, or currently are > on about every 6 months or so.? I do my best to contribute to the list > as often as I can, but I can't help people when they are deadset on > doing dangerous things.? Posts like his, and posts like yours make it > harder for me to bother trying to help those unwilling to listen.? I > don't take it from my children, and I certainly won't from adults who > won't listen. >Hi Mark, been a while since I saw you last in Asheville. The core issue in the /var/run thread is one of lack of civility. There is a civil way of calling someone to see their need for further thought and investigation; calling someone 'stupid' or 'an idiot' over something as small as /var/run directory persistence is, to my mind at least, its own brand of immaturity and will typically cause the person so being attacked to go on the defensive and harden their stance, and this is the textbook genesis of a flame. I've been involved in Unix and related pursuits long enough to know that different people consider different things to be polite.? And I've said my share of impolite things, especially back in the day when I had a Usenet leaf node over uucp and participated in news.admin and alt.flame, so I'm not being self-righteous here, just practical and realistic.? I've been plonked before, and I've plonked before.? (If anyone isn't familiar with the term 'plonk' it means to put in your killfile or ignore list, and there are a few people that have been on this list that I have killfiled in the past, several especially right around the releases of CentOS 5.6 and CentOS 6.0). So, for the last several years, I have set a protocol for myself where, if words that would be considered uncivil by most people were present in my post, or if my wording became too much of an attack over the person, I simply don't send it.? My wife and I have five children, so I'm more than a little familiar with a certain rabbit named Thumper and his famous adage "f you can't say something nice, don't say nothin' at all."? Now, I don't agree with that adage as written, as I would rather use the word 'civil' instead of 'nice,' because 'civil' doesn't mean nice.? Civil just means 'not nasty' even when you need to have 'Radical Candor.'? But I reserve that sort of 'harsh civility' for my staff here when necessary, who get a much more civil tone than my children at home would, incidentally. But my staff aren't children.? And the members of this list aren't my staff, and I will be civil to everyone on this list. I'll drop a brief note about my opinion of /var/run later, so that anyone who wants to ignore that thread before I post can do so.