On 07/27/2017 04:16 PM, wwp wrote:> ... > It is as simple as unknown hardware at boot up, it's a well known issue > w/ *Lake hardware (modern hardware) that kernel 3.x cannot handle. > CentOS7 has a kernel which is simply not modern, unable to handle lots > of computers sold currently. > > That said, there might be a way to boot, but nothing trivial and > nothing at all I could find on the Internet, everytime it's kernel > 4.3/4.10 minimum required.... While I know that Johnny has provided the experimental kernel (thanks, Johnny) I would like to just briefly address this idea that the C7 kernel is 'obviously' not going to work because 'is 3.x and must have 4.x.' In EL-land, kernel versions are effectively meaningless, since features, hardware support, bugfixes, security fixes, etc are back-ported into the 'old and not modern' 3.10 kernel (for EL7) by competent developers at Red Hat. An EL 3.10 kernel, such as the current 3.10.0-514.26.2.el7.x86_64 one, may have hardware support back-ported from a 4.x kernel that doesn't exist in the vanilla kernel.org kernel (I'm almost certain it does, but I'm not going to take the time to get details). So it is very possible that full hardware support for your hardware could show up in a 3.10 kernel (in fact, I would expect that this would happen, but it might not happen quickly). As you found out, experimental kernels and non-distribution kernels can freak out software packages, such as VMware Workstation, that only work with certain kernels and are expecting a particular kernel version and ABI for EL7. I've tried out a few non-standard kernels before, and if you rely on packages that depend upon the distribution default kernel version (as I do with kmod-nvidia from ELrepo!) that breakage can be swift, and can derail you in a hurry, causing you to go down a rabbit hole very quickly. So be prepared and keep your eyes open for these issues. In some circles, the back-porting of features into old kernels is controversial; but that is a business decision made as part of the EL development and is not likely to change any time soon. YMMV.
On 08/02/2017 09:55 AM, Lamar Owen wrote:> On 07/27/2017 04:16 PM, wwp wrote: >> ... >> It is as simple as unknown hardware at boot up, it's a well known issue >> w/ *Lake hardware (modern hardware) that kernel 3.x cannot handle. >> CentOS7 has a kernel which is simply not modern, unable to handle lots >> of computers sold currently. >> >> That said, there might be a way to boot, but nothing trivial and >> nothing at all I could find on the Internet, everytime it's kernel >> 4.3/4.10 minimum required. > ... > > While I know that Johnny has provided the experimental kernel (thanks, > Johnny) I would like to just briefly address this idea that the C7 > kernel is 'obviously' not going to work because 'is 3.x and must have 4.x.' > > In EL-land, kernel versions are effectively meaningless, since features, > hardware support, bugfixes, security fixes, etc are back-ported into the > 'old and not modern' 3.10 kernel (for EL7) by competent developers at > Red Hat. An EL 3.10 kernel, such as the current > 3.10.0-514.26.2.el7.x86_64 one, may have hardware support back-ported > from a 4.x kernel that doesn't exist in the vanilla kernel.org kernel > (I'm almost certain it does, but I'm not going to take the time to get > details). >It might work in the RHEL 7.4 kernel .. I'll get that onto buildlogs for testing while I am working on the CentOS Linux 7 upgrade builds. And yes, people do need to understand that Red Hat backports newer firmware and drivers to the older kernels. There are plenty of 4.x kernel things backported. So, as you correctly pointed out, you can't treat the Red Hat 3.10.x kernels like kernel.org 3.10.x kernels. <snip> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: <http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/attachments/20170802/9504ed8a/attachment-0001.sig>
Hello, On Wed, 2 Aug 2017 10:55:14 -0400 Lamar Owen <lowen at pari.edu> wrote:> On 07/27/2017 04:16 PM, wwp wrote: > > ... > > It is as simple as unknown hardware at boot up, it's a well known issue > > w/ *Lake hardware (modern hardware) that kernel 3.x cannot handle. > > CentOS7 has a kernel which is simply not modern, unable to handle lots > > of computers sold currently. > > > > That said, there might be a way to boot, but nothing trivial and > > nothing at all I could find on the Internet, everytime it's kernel > > 4.3/4.10 minimum required. > ... > > While I know that Johnny has provided the experimental kernel (thanks, Johnny) I would like to just briefly address this idea that the C7 kernel is 'obviously' not going to work because 'is 3.x and must have 4.x.' > > In EL-land, kernel versions are effectively meaningless, since features, hardware support, bugfixes, security fixes, etc are back-ported into the 'old and not modern' 3.10 kernel (for EL7) by competent developers at Red Hat. An EL 3.10 kernel, such as the current 3.10.0-514.26.2.el7.x86_64 one, may have hardware support back-ported from a 4.x kernel that doesn't exist in the vanilla kernel.org kernel (I'm almost certain it does, but I'm not going to take the time to get details). > > So it is very possible that full hardware support for your hardware could show up in a 3.10 kernel (in fact, I would expect that this would happen, but it might not happen quickly). As you found out, experimental kernels and non-distribution kernels can freak out software packages, such as VMware Workstation, that only work with certain kernels and are expecting a particular kernel version and ABI for EL7. I've tried out a few non-standard kernels before, and if you rely on packages that depend upon the distribution default kernel version (as I do with kmod-nvidia from ELrepo!) that breakage can be swift, and can derail you in a hurry, causing you to go down a rabbit hole very quickly. So be prepared and keep your eyes open for these issues. > > In some circles, the back-porting of features into old kernels is controversial; but that is a business decision made as part of the EL development and is not likely to change any time soon. YMMV.Thanks for this clear explanation, Lamar. I'll surely keep an eye on further kernel updates (and CentOS 7.4). Regards, -- wwp -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: <http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/attachments/20170802/6726779d/attachment-0001.sig>
On 02/08/17 16:18, Johnny Hughes wrote:> On 08/02/2017 09:55 AM, Lamar Owen wrote: >> On 07/27/2017 04:16 PM, wwp wrote: >>> ... >>> It is as simple as unknown hardware at boot up, it's a well known issue >>> w/ *Lake hardware (modern hardware) that kernel 3.x cannot handle. >>> CentOS7 has a kernel which is simply not modern, unable to handle lots >>> of computers sold currently. >>> >>> That said, there might be a way to boot, but nothing trivial and >>> nothing at all I could find on the Internet, everytime it's kernel >>> 4.3/4.10 minimum required. >> ... >> >> While I know that Johnny has provided the experimental kernel (thanks, >> Johnny) I would like to just briefly address this idea that the C7 >> kernel is 'obviously' not going to work because 'is 3.x and must have 4.x.' >> >> In EL-land, kernel versions are effectively meaningless, since features, >> hardware support, bugfixes, security fixes, etc are back-ported into the >> 'old and not modern' 3.10 kernel (for EL7) by competent developers at >> Red Hat. An EL 3.10 kernel, such as the current >> 3.10.0-514.26.2.el7.x86_64 one, may have hardware support back-ported >> from a 4.x kernel that doesn't exist in the vanilla kernel.org kernel >> (I'm almost certain it does, but I'm not going to take the time to get >> details). >> > > It might work in the RHEL 7.4 kernel .. I'll get that onto buildlogs for > testing while I am working on the CentOS Linux 7 upgrade builds. > > And yes, people do need to understand that Red Hat backports newer > firmware and drivers to the older kernels. There are plenty of 4.x > kernel things backported. So, as you correctly pointed out, you can't > treat the Red Hat 3.10.x kernels like kernel.org 3.10.x kernels. > > <snip> >Indeed, Lamar and Johnny are correct. For example, the wireless driver stack from kernel-4.11 has just showed up in the RHEL-7.4 kernel released yesterday. Further, I would encourage anyone to file RFEs upstream with Red Hat for support to be added for any currently unsupported hardware. If Red Hat don't know you want support for it, it won't get added. If you don't ask, you won't get. Whilst you are waiting on Red Hat to backport support into the distro kernel, don't forget elrepo.org also specialise in backporting individual device drivers which can provide an invaluable stopgap allowing the distro kernel to continue to be used until such time as the hardware is natively supported. For example, I recently built an updated i2c-i801 el7 driver adding backported support from kernel-4.4 for Braswell and Wildcat Point ICH's following an RFE from a user.
Johnny Hughes wrote:> On 08/02/2017 09:55 AM, Lamar Owen wrote: >> On 07/27/2017 04:16 PM, wwp wrote: >>> ... >>> It is as simple as unknown hardware at boot up, it's a well known issue >>> w/ *Lake hardware (modern hardware) that kernel 3.x cannot handle. >>> CentOS7 has a kernel which is simply not modern, unable to handle lots >>> of computers sold currently. >>> >>> That said, there might be a way to boot, but nothing trivial and >>> nothing at all I could find on the Internet, everytime it's kernel >>> 4.3/4.10 minimum required. >> ...<snip>>> In EL-land, kernel versions are effectively meaningless, since features, >> hardware support, bugfixes, security fixes, etc are back-ported into the >> 'old and not modern' 3.10 kernel (for EL7) by competent developers at >> Red Hat. An EL 3.10 kernel, such as the currentJust as a point of information, CentOS 6 runs on a Knights Landing architecture, though 7.x makes more features available. And that was about a year ago.... mark
On 08/02/2017 10:55 AM, Lamar Owen wrote:> On 07/27/2017 04:16 PM, wwp wrote: >> ... >> It is as simple as unknown hardware at boot up, it's a well known issue >> w/ *Lake hardware (modern hardware) that kernel 3.x cannot handle. >> CentOS7 has a kernel which is simply not modern, unable to handle lots >> of computers sold currently. >> >> That said, there might be a way to boot, but nothing trivial and >> nothing at all I could find on the Internet, everytime it's kernel >> 4.3/4.10 minimum required. > ... > > While I know that Johnny has provided the experimental kernel (thanks, > Johnny) I would like to just briefly address this idea that the C7 > kernel is 'obviously' not going to work because 'is 3.x and must have > 4.x.' > > In EL-land, kernel versions are effectively meaningless, since > features, hardware support, bugfixes, security fixes, etc are > back-ported into the 'old and not modern' 3.10 kernel (for EL7) by > competent developers at Red Hat. An EL 3.10 kernel, such as the > current 3.10.0-514.26.2.el7.x86_64 one, may have hardware support > back-ported from a 4.x kernel that doesn't exist in the vanilla > kernel.org kernel (I'm almost certain it does, but I'm not going to > take the time to get details). > > So it is very possible that full hardware support for your hardware > could show up in a 3.10 kernel (in fact, I would expect that this > would happen, but it might not happen quickly). As you found out, > experimental kernels and non-distribution kernels can freak out > software packages, such as VMware Workstation, that only work with > certain kernels and are expecting a particular kernel version and ABI > for EL7. I've tried out a few non-standard kernels before, and if you > rely on packages that depend upon the distribution default kernel > version (as I do with kmod-nvidia from ELrepo!) that breakage can be > swift, and can derail you in a hurry, causing you to go down a rabbit > hole very quickly. So be prepared and keep your eyes open for these > issues. > > In some circles, the back-porting of features into old kernels is > controversial; but that is a business decision made as part of the EL > development and is not likely to change any time soon. YMMV. > _______________________________________________I missed some of the responses but have you tried kernel-ml for RHEL 7 yet? See http://elrepo.org/tiki/kernel-ml Mike
Hello Mike, On Wed, 2 Aug 2017 17:19:30 -0400 "Mike McCarthy, W1NR" <sysop at w1nr.net> wrote:> On 08/02/2017 10:55 AM, Lamar Owen wrote: > > On 07/27/2017 04:16 PM, wwp wrote: > >> ... > >> It is as simple as unknown hardware at boot up, it's a well known issue > >> w/ *Lake hardware (modern hardware) that kernel 3.x cannot handle. > >> CentOS7 has a kernel which is simply not modern, unable to handle lots > >> of computers sold currently. > >> > >> That said, there might be a way to boot, but nothing trivial and > >> nothing at all I could find on the Internet, everytime it's kernel > >> 4.3/4.10 minimum required. > > ... > > > > While I know that Johnny has provided the experimental kernel (thanks, > > Johnny) I would like to just briefly address this idea that the C7 > > kernel is 'obviously' not going to work because 'is 3.x and must have > > 4.x.' > > > > In EL-land, kernel versions are effectively meaningless, since > > features, hardware support, bugfixes, security fixes, etc are > > back-ported into the 'old and not modern' 3.10 kernel (for EL7) by > > competent developers at Red Hat. An EL 3.10 kernel, such as the > > current 3.10.0-514.26.2.el7.x86_64 one, may have hardware support > > back-ported from a 4.x kernel that doesn't exist in the vanilla > > kernel.org kernel (I'm almost certain it does, but I'm not going to > > take the time to get details). > > > > So it is very possible that full hardware support for your hardware > > could show up in a 3.10 kernel (in fact, I would expect that this > > would happen, but it might not happen quickly). As you found out, > > experimental kernels and non-distribution kernels can freak out > > software packages, such as VMware Workstation, that only work with > > certain kernels and are expecting a particular kernel version and ABI > > for EL7. I've tried out a few non-standard kernels before, and if you > > rely on packages that depend upon the distribution default kernel > > version (as I do with kmod-nvidia from ELrepo!) that breakage can be > > swift, and can derail you in a hurry, causing you to go down a rabbit > > hole very quickly. So be prepared and keep your eyes open for these > > issues. > > > > In some circles, the back-porting of features into old kernels is > > controversial; but that is a business decision made as part of the EL > > development and is not likely to change any time soon. YMMV. > > _______________________________________________ > > I missed some of the responses but have you tried kernel-ml for RHEL 7 > yet? See http://elrepo.org/tiki/kernel-mlIn that time, no, but since then, yes. I replied some detail elsewhere to this thread. More to come! Regards, -- wwp -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: <http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/attachments/20170804/67e4fc61/attachment-0001.sig>