On Sun, January 11, 2015 2:05 pm, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. wrote:> On 01/11/2015 03:02 PM, Always Learning wrote: >> On Sun, 2015-01-11 at 20:04 +0100, Sven Kieske wrote to Valeri Galtsev >> .... >> >>> I can't take this serious as it seems you didn't research any of the >>> design goals of systemd and any of the shortcomings of old init >>> systems. >> Design goals ? Compatibility with and/or minimum disruption to existing >> systems ? >> >> It was arrogant change with absolutely no regard for the existing >> Centos/RHEL users. That *is* a strange "design goal" (or 'objective' in >> English). Some may consider that "goal" an inadvertent omission. >> >> Obviously designed by non-Centos/RHEL users for their personal amusement >> and pleasure and not as an acceptable enhancement that could be >> implemented, perhaps in phases, within minimum disruption to existing >> systems reliant on stable Centos/RHEL. Yes, I know it takes brains to >> properly consider all the implications of major changes. On this >> occasion it seems the 'brains' were holidaying away from the influence >> of due diligence and old fashioned commonsense. >> >> Why should the 'brains' care ? They don't run systems that require >> stability and reliability - that is why they lurk in Fedora where >> disruption is a scheduled "design goal". >> >> Remember that English phrase? Fools step-in where wise men fear to >> tread. >> >> Hopefully the next "improvement" will consider the adverse affect on the >> non-Fedora users and on their well-tuned systems. >> >> > There's always the option of just NOT upgrading...and using what you > currently have...(I'm just now going from CentOS 5 to CentOS 6!....) I'm > just saying. >Indeed. Or another system altogether (sihg). I'm just extending your thought half a step farther ;-) Valeri ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
On 01/11/2015 03:09 PM, Valeri Galtsev wrote:> On Sun, January 11, 2015 2:05 pm, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. wrote: >> On 01/11/2015 03:02 PM, Always Learning wrote: >>> On Sun, 2015-01-11 at 20:04 +0100, Sven Kieske wrote to Valeri Galtsev >>> .... >>> >>>> I can't take this serious as it seems you didn't research any of the >>>> design goals of systemd and any of the shortcomings of old init >>>> systems. >>> Design goals ? Compatibility with and/or minimum disruption to existing >>> systems ? >>> >>> It was arrogant change with absolutely no regard for the existing >>> Centos/RHEL users. That *is* a strange "design goal" (or 'objective' in >>> English). Some may consider that "goal" an inadvertent omission. >>> >>> Obviously designed by non-Centos/RHEL users for their personal amusement >>> and pleasure and not as an acceptable enhancement that could be >>> implemented, perhaps in phases, within minimum disruption to existing >>> systems reliant on stable Centos/RHEL. Yes, I know it takes brains to >>> properly consider all the implications of major changes. On this >>> occasion it seems the 'brains' were holidaying away from the influence >>> of due diligence and old fashioned commonsense. >>> >>> Why should the 'brains' care ? They don't run systems that require >>> stability and reliability - that is why they lurk in Fedora where >>> disruption is a scheduled "design goal". >>> >>> Remember that English phrase? Fools step-in where wise men fear to >>> tread. >>> >>> Hopefully the next "improvement" will consider the adverse affect on the >>> non-Fedora users and on their well-tuned systems. >>> >>> >> There's always the option of just NOT upgrading...and using what you >> currently have...(I'm just now going from CentOS 5 to CentOS 6!....) I'm >> just saying. >> > Indeed. Or another system altogether (sihg). I'm just extending your > thought half a step farther ;-) > > Valeri > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Valeri Galtsev > Sr System Administrator > Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics > Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics > University of Chicago > Phone: 773-702-4247 > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > _______________________________________________ > CentOS mailing list > CentOS at centos.org > http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centosAnd that's the beauty of it...the "extending" of thoughts to achieve a common goal..... EGO II
On 2015-01-11, Valeri Galtsev <galtsev at kicp.uchicago.edu> wrote:> > Indeed. Or another system altogether (sihg). I'm just extending your > thought half a step farther ;-)Or going even farther, if you like CentOS but not systemd, do the work to get CentOS working without it. Unhappy Debian users are trying to do this with Devuan. It seems extremely unlikely that complaining about downstream is going to change anything. --keith -- kkeller at wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
On Sun, January 11, 2015 5:16 pm, Keith Keller wrote:> On 2015-01-11, Valeri Galtsev <galtsev at kicp.uchicago.edu> wrote: >> >> Indeed. Or another system altogether (sihg). I'm just extending your >> thought half a step farther ;-) > > Or going even farther, if you like CentOS but not systemd, do the work > to get CentOS working without it. Unhappy Debian users are trying to do > this with Devuan. It seems extremely unlikely that complaining about > downstream is going to change anything. >I know... But: systemd is in a mainstream kernel. All Linux distros imminently have Linux kernel... There are different levels to which I care about two different groups of boxes I maintain. One of them stays with Linux and is upgraded to the latest whenever appropriate no matter whether there is systemd or anything else I might not like. Another group... I'm talking about their issues on different mail lists for quite some time already. So, I'm happy. And wish the same to everybody else ;-) Valeri PS I guess I just mention it. I'm quite happy about CentOS (or RedHat if I look back). One day I realized how happy I am that I chose RedHat way back, - that was when all Debian (and its clones like Ubuntu,...) admins were fighting with the consequences of this: http://www.debian.org/security/2008/dsa-1571 . If I had Debian machine I would not only regenerate all key pairs, certs, etc. I would question sanity of that box then, and will not be certain what confidential stuff could have been stolen from it... I realized then that that level big flop never happened to RedHat. I couldn't even point to something that would constitute big flop RedHat of then. One only criticizes something while one cares about it ;-) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++