A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, when one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of centos.org one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On choosing one option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list of options and no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are yet again given a list of options and no guidance. Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose is not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok position to hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a little, and offer some guidance as to which links one should click? I'd like to see several things: 1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", there would be at least some hint of what this choice entails 2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a little explanation of what the various options there are. So far, this is all just edits to centos.org. The next two steps involve pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no idea what is involved there. 3) Adding phrasing to http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates what that inscrutable list of links means. and finally, possibly not even possible: 4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a random example) that say what the various options mean. This is probably not possible, since these are just autoindex generated pages. We could, however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration recommendations which will provide that additional information for sites that chose to follow the instructions. And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here. The full message follows: >> I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me some sort of answer. I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed to know what they are looking for. When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave CentOs to the experts? I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to choose which version of CentOs to use? If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to answer my question, I will be grateful. <<
Hi Rich, Just for 1), when you choose the distro you want, written in white on blue on top of that you have a phrasing that describes (agreed, it could be better positioned, but it's there) : CentOS Linux => Consistent, manageable platform that suits a wide variety of deployments. For some open source communities, it is a solid, predictable base to build upon. CentOS Stream => Rolling-release distro that tracks just ahead of Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) development, positioned as a midstream between Fedora Linux and RHEL. For anyone interested in participating and collaborating in the RHEL ecosystem, CentOS Stream is your reliable platform for innovation. I agree on the missing points, and also the "Documentation" page includes doc for 7 & 8, even if you're on the 6.10 choice. Which means there's not even documentation links for 6 while it's still possible to download it ? On the other points, once you choose x86_64, there should be more guidance on the mirror page I'd say. You'll find the following ISO files, here is a list of which you'll find and what usage. Maybe the mirror parent page could include a readme or a redirect to the ISO page as well for that matter ? I think the fewest places the info is stored, the less likely we'll forget an update when there is one. Thanks, On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:04 PM Rich Bowen <rbowen at redhat.com> wrote:> A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install > CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, when > one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of centos.org > one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On choosing one > option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list of options and > no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are yet again given a > list of options and no guidance. > > Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose is > not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok position to > hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a little, and offer > some guidance as to which links one should click? > > I'd like to see several things: > > 1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", there > would be at least some hint of what this choice entails > > 2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a > little explanation of what the various options there are. > > So far, this is all just edits to centos.org. The next two steps involve > pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no idea what > is involved there. > > 3) Adding phrasing to > http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates what > that inscrutable list of links means. > > and finally, possibly not even possible: > > 4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a > random example) that say what the various options mean. This is probably > not possible, since these are just autoindex generated pages. We could, > however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration recommendations > which will provide that additional information for sites that chose to > follow the instructions. > > And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here. > > The full message follows: > > >> > I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me > some sort of answer. > I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located > a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring > varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I > have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how > do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed > to know what they are looking for. > When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with > ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely > candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no > idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave > CentOs to the experts? > I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user > level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone > who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very > unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended > user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to > choose which version of CentOs to use? > If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to > answer my question, I will be grateful. > << > > _______________________________________________ > CentOS-docs mailing list > CentOS-docs at centos.org > https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos-docs/attachments/20200817/25b34122/attachment-0005.html>
On 8/17/20 4:19 PM, Thibaut Perrin wrote:> Hi Rich, > > Just for 1), when you choose the distro you want, written in white on > blue on top of that you have a phrasing that describes (agreed, it could > be better positioned, but it's there) : > CentOS Linux > => Consistent, manageable platform that suits a wide variety of > deployments. For some open source communities, it is a solid, > predictable base to build upon. > > CentOS Stream > => Rolling-release distro that tracks just ahead of Red Hat Enterprise > Linux (RHEL) development, positioned as a midstream between Fedora Linux > and RHEL. For anyone interested in participating and collaborating in > the RHEL ecosystem, CentOS Stream is your reliable platform for innovation.Yes, these are good, but are both *after* you've made the choice of which button to click. I have been told (not in writing, but just at events) that it's not clear why one would pick one or the other. Maybe we could do a shorter form of those as a mouseover?> > I agree on the missing points,?and also the "Documentation" page > includes doc for 7 & 8, even if you're on the?6.10 choice. Which means > there's not even documentation links for 6 while it's still possible to > download it ?Oops. I hadn't noticed that. Although, we're just 2 months out from 6 EOL, so probably not something we're going to spend much time fixing, I'd guess?> > On the other points, once you choose x86_64, there should be more > guidance on the mirror page I'd say. You'll find the following ISO > files, here is a list of which you'll find and what usage. > Maybe the mirror parent page could include a readme or a redirect to the > ISO page as well for that matter ? > > I think the fewest places the info is stored, the less likely we'll > forget an update when there is one.Definitely, I agree.> > Thanks, > > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:04 PM Rich Bowen <rbowen at redhat.com > <mailto:rbowen at redhat.com>> wrote: > > A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install > CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, when > one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of > centos.org <http://centos.org> > one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On choosing one > option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list of options and > no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are yet again given a > list of options and no guidance. > > Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose is > not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok position to > hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a little, and > offer > some guidance as to which links one should click? > > I'd like to see several things: > > 1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", > there > would be at least some hint of what this choice entails > > 2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a > little explanation of what the various options there are. > > So far, this is all just edits to centos.org <http://centos.org>. > The next two steps involve > pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no idea what > is involved there. > > 3) Adding phrasing to > http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates what > that inscrutable list of links means. > > and finally, possibly not even possible: > > 4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a > random example) that say what the various options mean. This is > probably > not possible, since these are just autoindex generated pages. We could, > however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration recommendations > which will provide that additional information for sites that chose to > follow the instructions. > > And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here. > > The full message follows: > > ?>> > I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me > some sort of answer. > I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located > a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring > varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I > have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how > do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed > to know what they are looking for. > When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with > ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely > candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no > idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave > CentOs to the experts? > I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user > level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone > who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very > unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended > user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to > choose which version of CentOs to use? > If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to > answer my question, I will be grateful. > << > > _______________________________________________ > CentOS-docs mailing list > CentOS-docs at centos.org <mailto:CentOS-docs at centos.org> > https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs > > > _______________________________________________ > CentOS-docs mailing list > CentOS-docs at centos.org > https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs >
On 8/17/20 11:04 PM, Rich Bowen wrote:> A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install > CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, > when one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of > centos.org one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On > choosing one option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list > of options and no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are > yet again given a list of options and no guidance. > > Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose > is not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok position > to hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a little, and > offer some guidance as to which links one should click? > > I'd like to see several things: > > 1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", > there would be at least some hint of what this choice entails > > 2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a > little explanation of what the various options there are. > > So far, this is all just edits to centos.org. The next two steps > involve pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no > idea what is involved there. > > 3) Adding phrasing to > http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates > what that inscrutable list of links means. > > and finally, possibly not even possible: > > 4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a > random example) that say what the various options mean. This is > probably not possible, since these are just autoindex generated pages. > We could, however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration > recommendations which will provide that additional information for > sites that chose to follow the instructions. > > And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here. >Rich, I fully agree with that user and frankly, I command him for reaching out and telling you ( and us ) his concerns. I for one would have quit and not looked back. Been there, done that. Leaving that aside, AFAIK the main web site is not under community control. It was taken over by RedHat eons ago ( not that it was accessible for us, the members of the CentOS teams, before that anyway ) and I bet that there are most 5 people who can modify it. If memory serves I am part of the wiki translation team for 12 years or so and AFAIK none of those who can edit the wiki had ever had any sort of influence on the pages published on www.c.o. We actually had to _beg_ to have links in the main website point to the wiki ( which _was_ under our control ) so that we could publish information we thought that could/would be useful for the users. In an ideal world, we would have some sort of AJAX that would dynamically describe each and every iso link on the main pages of the web site. But that's a job for web designers and content publishers. I fully recommend to whoever will be tasked with this project to look at the wiki maintained by the arch community. THAT is how things should be done, from my point of view. And, with all due respect, I mean that as opposed to access.r.c and www.r.c which are awful to navigate unless you know exactly what you want.. and sometimes not even then. wolfy PS: I created the very very first 0_README.txt file that is now included in the isos/$ARCH folder. A file which usually is ignored for the simple reason that end users almost never reach it but whose content should be published BEFORE the users attempt to download an iso.> The full message follows: > > >> > I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me > some sort of answer. > I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located > a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring > varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I > have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how > do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed > to know what they are looking for. > When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with > ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely > candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no > idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave > CentOs to the experts? > I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user > level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone > who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very > unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended > user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to > choose which version of CentOs to use? > If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to > answer my question, I will be grateful. > << > > _______________________________________________ > CentOS-docs mailing list > CentOS-docs at centos.org > https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
On 8/18/20 2:34 AM, Manuel Wolfshant wrote:> On 8/17/20 11:04 PM, Rich Bowen wrote: >> A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install >> CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, >> when one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of >> centos.org one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On >> choosing one option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list >> of options and no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are >> yet again given a list of options and no guidance. >> >> Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose >> is not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok >> position to hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a >> little, and offer some guidance as to which links one should click? >> >> I'd like to see several things: >> >> 1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", >> there would be at least some hint of what this choice entails >> >> 2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a >> little explanation of what the various options there are. >> >> So far, this is all just edits to centos.org. The next two steps >> involve pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no >> idea what is involved there. >> >> 3) Adding phrasing to >> http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates >> what that inscrutable list of links means. >> >> and finally, possibly not even possible: >> >> 4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a >> random example) that say what the various options mean. This is >> probably not possible, since these are just autoindex generated >> pages. We could, however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration >> recommendations which will provide that additional information for >> sites that chose to follow the instructions.Oh, sweet. I just noticed that below the /8/isos tree there is no description similar to http://centos4.zswap.net/7/isos/x86_64/0_README.txt. Wonderful choice, dropping each and every hint that [barely] existed.>> >> And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here. >> > Rich, I fully agree with that user and frankly, I command him for > reaching out and telling you ( and us ) his concerns. I for one would > have quit and not looked back. Been there, done that. > > Leaving that aside, AFAIK the main web site is not under community > control. It was taken over by RedHat eons ago ( not that it was > accessible for us, the members of the CentOS teams, before that anyway > ) and I bet that there are most 5 people who can modify it. If memory > serves I am part of the wiki translation team for 12 years or so and > AFAIK none of those who can edit the wiki had ever had any sort of > influence on the pages published on www.c.o. We actually had to _beg_ > to have links in the main website point to the wiki ( which _was_ > under our control ) so that we could publish information we thought > that could/would be useful for the users. > > > In an ideal world, we would have some sort of AJAX that would > dynamically describe each and every iso link on the main pages of the > web site. But that's a job for web designers and content publishers. I > fully recommend to whoever will be tasked with this project to look at > the wiki maintained by the arch community. THAT is how things should > be done, from my point of view. And, with all due respect, I mean that > as opposed to access.r.c and www.r.c which are awful to navigate > unless you know exactly what you want.. and sometimes not even then. > > wolfy > > > PS: I created the very very first 0_README.txt file that is now > included in the isos/$ARCH folder. A file which usually is ignored for > the simple reason that end users almost never reach it but whose > content should be published BEFORE the users attempt to download an iso. > > > >> The full message follows: >> >> >> >> I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me >> some sort of answer. >> I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located >> a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring >> varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I >> have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how >> do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed >> to know what they are looking for. >> When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with >> ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely >> candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no >> idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave >> CentOs to the experts? >> I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user >> level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone >> who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very >> unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended >> user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to >> choose which version of CentOs to use? >> If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to >> answer my question, I will be grateful. >> <<
On 8/17/20 7:34 PM, Manuel Wolfshant wrote:> Leaving that aside, AFAIK the main web site is not under community > control. It was taken over by RedHat eons ago ( not that it was > accessible for us, the members of the CentOS teams, before that anyway ) > and I bet that there are most 5 people who can modify it. If memory > serves I am part of the wiki translation team for 12 years or so and > AFAIK none of those who can edit the wiki had ever had any sort of > influence on the pages published on www.c.o. We actually had to _beg_ to > have links in the main website point to the wiki ( which _was_ under our > control ) so that we could publish information we thought that > could/would be useful for the users.FYI: Anyone can submit pull requests at https://git.centos.org/centos/centos.org> > > In an ideal world, we would have some sort of AJAX that would > dynamically describe each and every iso link on the main pages of the > web site. But that's a job for web designers and content publishers. I > fully recommend to whoever will be tasked with this project to look at > the wiki maintained by the arch community. THAT is how things should be > done, from my point of view. And, with all due respect, I mean that as > opposed to access.r.c and www.r.c which are awful to navigate unless you > know exactly what you want.. and sometimes not even then. > > wolfy > > > PS: I created the very very first 0_README.txt file that is now included > in the isos/$ARCH folder. A file which usually is ignored for the simple > reason that end users almost never reach it but whose content should be > published BEFORE the users attempt to download an iso. > > > >> The full message follows: >> >> >> >> I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me >> some sort of answer. >> I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located >> a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring >> varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I >> have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how >> do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed >> to know what they are looking for. >> When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with >> ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely >> candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no >> idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave >> CentOs to the experts? >> I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user >> level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone >> who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very >> unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended >> user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to >> choose which version of CentOs to use? >> If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to >> answer my question, I will be grateful. >> << >> >> _______________________________________________ >> CentOS-docs mailing list >> CentOS-docs at centos.org >> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs > > > _______________________________________________ > CentOS-docs mailing list > CentOS-docs at centos.org > https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs >