John Todd
2003-Aug-21 01:32 UTC
[Asterisk-Users] 911, networks of * servers, etc. (was: VOIP Dialtone?)
OK, that "VOIP dialtone?" thread was getting really out of hand, so I'll condense my answers into one big ugly message: 1) 911 service. Yes, that is one of three reasons to keep your PSTN line. The other two reasons are: Inbound calls from local callers still should work on a POTS line, for now. You can't find VOIP providers in most area codes, so you'll most likely need to have a "local" number that finds it's way to you for "local" tasks. Secondly, the Internet is not as reliable as the phone system. Sorry, folks, it just works that way right now despite what your network engineer might tell you. That's not to say it's unreliable, but those last two nines are very expensive... Besides, any good network engineer will tell you that you should have multiple paths for your IP connectivity. With few exceptions, most homes do not have multipath connectivity. (note: businesses may in fact have better uptime on their IP network than their phone network, if they have competent engineers and a reasonable budget.) 1.5) There are reasonable technical solutions to this problem, but for the life of me I can't figure out why the 911 centers haven't gotten their act together and solved this. There are two halves to this problem: "What PSAP do I call? (and what phone number)" and "How do I get my location data to the PSAP once I call them?" C'mon, this is not difficult. The first question can be answered trivially: there _must_ be a database of address-to-PSAP mappings. Any PBX administrator (or SIP phone owner, for that matter) should be able to figure out their address. Methods for associating the PSAP number with the phone are numerous, and trivially implemented - if people don't keep their address information updated, they're SOL (though you can remind them in an automated fashion to keep it updated - just forbid them from using the service unless they verify the address every month or so.) The second question is more difficult, but certainly possible. There may be kludge ways of doing it, and there should be more elegant ways of doing it. A SIP header with lat/lon/alt data that gets sent from the UA only on 911 (or other programmable string) calls might be reasonably elegant... maybe. But that only gets the data to the SIP proxy. That doesn't solve the issue of how you get that data from the SIP proxy to the PSAP, which at some point will be almost certainly through a PSTN connection... ADSI FSK, maybe? Ugly, and PSAPs would not want to invest in equipment. A national caller-id to location clearinghouse in which your proxy could participate (any 911 calls would create a temporary mapping)? Maybe, but probably not. Non-standard, and I doubt PSAP operators would want another tool, even if it is web-based and so easy a monkey could use it. I don't know. I guess I'll grill the PSAP people at the panel next month at VON. :-) 2) Networks of Asterisk servers, offering dialtone to each other in different places. YES, this is a good idea, but setting dialplans up for least-cost-routing via static routes is a pretty rotten and unscaleable task. See my conversations on why someone should implement TRIP in Asterisk (hey, I'm still looking for a programmer... anyone want some money?) http://lists.digium.com/pipermail/asterisk-dev/2003-July/001172.html I already participate in one such network, and I get free calls into four large area codes into which I terminate much of my traffic, and they get... well... not much, since I live in an area code that gets very little traffic. :-) They get my undying gratitude. 3) Local service vs. long distance: I route local (read: "free") calls over my PSTN connection. I make very infrequent local calls, but it seems to work well for me. I could, probably without noticing, send all my calls through my LD provider, even those which are local, and not notice a change in my bills. The cost for a business when you examine the measured service that most businesses use vs. the cost of LD, is a silly comparison - it's very often cheaper to dial via a VOIP provider than it is to dial a local measured RBOC call. Go, Go, Gadget Deregulation!! Uh... wait... "de"regulation? This may be illegal if you're a CLEC/LEC, but if you're not a phone company, go right ahead. 4) To whoever asked, http://www.voicepulse.com/ should work with Asterisk, as they are SIP based. I don't know if they give you username/password though - I didn't look that far into it. JT
r6henso6@swbell.net
2003-Aug-21 08:28 UTC
[Asterisk-Users] RE:911, networks of * servers, etc. (was: VOIP Dialtone?)
911 through the phone system is tricky business. e911 which is the automated process of handing the address to the 911 center uses the SS7 database to do it's work (the database is created when the LEC runs physical lines to locations not by people filling anything out). Cell phone service providers have the simuliar problems as VoIP service providers are facing are realizing with call forwarding and call following it will get worse.. Congress has mandated that the cell phone industry make it possible to track a cell phone users within 300yards via cell sites and triangulation. By 2005 every cell phone will be required to have a GPS and send GPS information to the 911 system when they call 911. If you want more information on e911 try http://www.fcc.gov/911/enhanced/ . As the cell phone industry grows there will be a need for a national 911 call routing center. I bet it won't be free. Original Message: ----------------- From: John Todd jtodd@loligo.com Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 01:32:24 -0700 To: asterisk-users@lists.digium.com Subject: [Asterisk-Users] 911, networks of * servers, etc. (was: VOIP Dialtone?) OK, that "VOIP dialtone?" thread was getting really out of hand, so I'll condense my answers into one big ugly message: 1) 911 service. Yes, that is one of three reasons to keep your PSTN line. The other two reasons are: Inbound calls from local callers still should work on a POTS line, for now. You can't find VOIP providers in most area codes, so you'll most likely need to have a "local" number that finds it's way to you for "local" tasks. Secondly, the Internet is not as reliable as the phone system. Sorry, folks, it just works that way right now despite what your network engineer might tell you. That's not to say it's unreliable, but those last two nines are very expensive... Besides, any good network engineer will tell you that you should have multiple paths for your IP connectivity. With few exceptions, most homes do not have multipath connectivity. (note: businesses may in fact have better uptime on their IP network than their phone network, if they have competent engineers and a reasonable budget.) 1.5) There are reasonable technical solutions to this problem, but for the life of me I can't figure out why the 911 centers haven't gotten their act together and solved this. There are two halves to this problem: "What PSAP do I call? (and what phone number)" and "How do I get my location data to the PSAP once I call them?" C'mon, this is not difficult. The first question can be answered trivially: there _must_ be a database of address-to-PSAP mappings. Any PBX administrator (or SIP phone owner, for that matter) should be able to figure out their address. Methods for associating the PSAP number with the phone are numerous, and trivially implemented - if people don't keep their address information updated, they're SOL (though you can remind them in an automated fashion to keep it updated - just forbid them from using the service unless they verify the address every month or so.) The second question is more difficult, but certainly possible. There may be kludge ways of doing it, and there should be more elegant ways of doing it. A SIP header with lat/lon/alt data that gets sent from the UA only on 911 (or other programmable string) calls might be reasonably elegant... maybe. But that only gets the data to the SIP proxy. That doesn't solve the issue of how you get that data from the SIP proxy to the PSAP, which at some point will be almost certainly through a PSTN connection... ADSI FSK, maybe? Ugly, and PSAPs would not want to invest in equipment. A national caller-id to location clearinghouse in which your proxy could participate (any 911 calls would create a temporary mapping)? Maybe, but probably not. Non-standard, and I doubt PSAP operators would want another tool, even if it is web-based and so easy a monkey could use it. I don't know. I guess I'll grill the PSAP people at the panel next month at VON. :-) 2) Networks of Asterisk servers, offering dialtone to each other in different places. YES, this is a good idea, but setting dialplans up for least-cost-routing via static routes is a pretty rotten and unscaleable task. See my conversations on why someone should implement TRIP in Asterisk (hey, I'm still looking for a programmer... anyone want some money?) http://lists.digium.com/pipermail/asterisk-dev/2003-July/001172.html I already participate in one such network, and I get free calls into four large area codes into which I terminate much of my traffic, and they get... well... not much, since I live in an area code that gets very little traffic. :-) They get my undying gratitude. 3) Local service vs. long distance: I route local (read: "free") calls over my PSTN connection. I make very infrequent local calls, but it seems to work well for me. I could, probably without noticing, send all my calls through my LD provider, even those which are local, and not notice a change in my bills. The cost for a business when you examine the measured service that most businesses use vs. the cost of LD, is a silly comparison - it's very often cheaper to dial via a VOIP provider than it is to dial a local measured RBOC call. Go, Go, Gadget Deregulation!! Uh... wait... "de"regulation? This may be illegal if you're a CLEC/LEC, but if you're not a phone company, go right ahead. 4) To whoever asked, http://www.voicepulse.com/ should work with Asterisk, as they are SIP based. I don't know if they give you username/password though - I didn't look that far into it. JT _______________________________________________ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .
Rob Scott
2003-Aug-22 05:56 UTC
[Asterisk-Users] RE:911, networks of * servers, etc. (was: VOIP Dialtone?)
-----Original Message----- From: asterisk-users-admin@lists.digium.com [mailto:asterisk-users-admin@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of John Todd Sent: 21 August 2003 21:01 To: asterisk-users@lists.digium.com Subject: [Asterisk-Users] RE:911, networks of * servers, etc. (was: VOIP Dialtone?) Yes, I'm familiar with the E911 platforms and their requirements to some degree. The trick is that the people running Asterisk PBX systems have no visibility into SS7, and that is an unreasonable expectation, so some other out-of-band method for moving caller location to the PSAP is required. As far as geographic location tracking is concerned: that is the user's problem. If they don't have the correct information in their device, then they're SOL. There is _no way_ to develop lat/lon/alt coordinates from an IP address, despite what any .com flash-in-the-pan company says they can do with their clever databases. Thus, the PBX/switch provider will have to enforce their own database of device-to-geographic-coordinates. (As mentioned, maybe a SIP header is a reasonable thing to use for the UA to relay this data to the proxy.) I am not concerned so much about the ability of the devices to send their data to the proxy: I am VERY concerned about how the proxy then looks up the appropriate PSAP, and then relays the data for the call to that PSAP. JT>911 through the phone system is tricky business. e911 which is the >automated process of handing the address to the 911 center uses the SS7>database to do it's work (the database is created when the LEC runs >physical lines to locations not by people filling anything out). Cell >phone service providers have the simuliar problems as VoIP service >providers are facing are realizing with call forwarding and call >following it will get worse.. Congress has mandated that the cell phone>industry make it possible to track a cell phone users within 300yards >via cell sites and triangulation. By 2005 every cell phone will be >required to have a GPS and send GPS information to the 911 system when >they call 911. If you want more information on e911 try >http://www.fcc.gov/911/enhanced/ . As the cell phone industry grows >there will be a need for a national 911 call routing center. I bet it >won't be free. > > >Original Message: >----------------- >From: John Todd jtodd@loligo.com >Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 01:32:24 -0700 >To: asterisk-users@lists.digium.com >Subject: [Asterisk-Users] 911, networks of * servers, etc. (was: VOIP >Dialtone?) > > > >OK, that "VOIP dialtone?" thread was getting really out of hand, so >I'll condense my answers into one big ugly message: > > >1) 911 service. Yes, that is one of three reasons to keep your PSTN >line. The other two reasons are: Inbound calls from local callers >still should work on a POTS line, for now. You can't find VOIP >providers in most area codes, so you'll most likely need to have a >"local" number that finds it's way to you for "local" tasks. Secondly, >the Internet is not as reliable as the phone system. Sorry, folks, it >just works that way right now despite what your network engineer might >tell you. That's not to say it's unreliable, but those last two nines >are very expensive... Besides, any good network engineer will tell you >that you should have multiple paths for your IP connectivity. With few>exceptions, most homes do not have multipath connectivity. (note: >businesses may in fact have better uptime on their IP network than >their phone network, if they have competent engineers and a reasonable >budget.) > >1.5) There are reasonable technical solutions to this problem, but for >the life of me I can't figure out why the 911 centers haven't gotten >their act together and solved this. There are two halves to this >problem: "What PSAP do I call? (and what phone number)" and "How do I >get my location data to the PSAP once I call them?" C'mon, this is not >difficult. The first question can be answered >trivially: there _must_ be a database of address-to-PSAP mappings. Any >PBX administrator (or SIP phone owner, for that matter) should be able >to figure out their address. Methods for associating the PSAP number >with the phone are numerous, and trivially implemented - if people >don't keep their address information updated, they're SOL (though you >can remind them in an automated fashion to keep it updated - just >forbid them from using the service unless they verify the address every>month or so.) > >The second question is more difficult, but certainly possible. There >may be kludge ways of doing it, and there should be more elegant ways >of doing it. A SIP header with lat/lon/alt data that gets sent from >the UA only on 911 (or other programmable string) calls might be >reasonably elegant... maybe. But that only gets the data to the SIP >proxy. That doesn't solve the issue of how you get that data from the >SIP proxy to the PSAP, which at some point will be almost certainly >through a PSTN connection... ADSI FSK, maybe? Ugly, and PSAPs would >not want to invest in equipment. A national caller-id to location >clearinghouse in which your proxy could participate (any 911 calls >would create a temporary mapping)? Maybe, but probably not. >Non-standard, and I doubt PSAP operators would want another tool, even >if it is web-based and so easy a monkey could use it. I don't know. I>guess I'll grill the PSAP people at the panel next month at VON. :-) >[snip] _______________________________________________ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users