Stefan Kanthak via llvm-dev
2020-Aug-21 12:23 UTC
[llvm-dev] Clang is a resource hog, the installers for Windows miss quite some files, and are defect!
"Michael Kruse" <llvmdev at meinersbur.de> wrote:> I think David is not referring to the capitalization of file names, but to > "DUPLICATE", "WASTING", "NOT AMUSED", "BOGUS" etc.I EMPHASIZE in the only way possible with plain text.> It should be possible to report problems in a professional manner.It should also be possible to handle problem reports in a professional manner!> Please remember that the project is made available by volunteers > for free. We also have a dedicated bug tracker: bugs.llvm.org.You are free to enter the bugs I pointed out there. I don't use LLVM, so don't expect me to jump throught loops to report obvious bugs.> Am Do., 20. Aug. 2020 um 13:49 Uhr schrieb Stefan Kanthak via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>: > >> BUGS #1 & #2: >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> > > On UNIX systems, these are symlinks.UNIX and Windows are quite different.> There are multiple potential equivalents to symlinks on Windows systems, > the one matching UNIX systems the closest is relatively new and requires > either Administrator rights or developer mode turned on.Hardlinks don't. And they are available on both systems.> Typically tools ported from a UNIX environment to Windows just copy the > file instead symlinking to avoid dealing with issues such as when the > installing on a non-NTFS file system (FAT, network drive, etc),Do you really want to tell that the installer LLVM uses on Windows was ported from UNIX? REALITY CHECK, please! The default installation goes into %ProgramFiles%\LLVM, which is located on NTFS.> so does LLVM (https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/blob/master/llvm/cmake/modules/LLVMInstallSymlink.cmake ).> Since mass storage is cheap, there isn't a lot of motivation to save to > invest time to save some space. However, you are free to invest that time > yourself and submit patches.I'm even free not to use LLVM at all, but nevertheless see and report its bugs and deficiencies here: be professional and fix them>> BUG #5: >> ~~~~~~~ >> >> Poor souls who want to install the 64-bit package after/aside the >> 32-bit package (or vice versa) are greeted with the following BOGUS >> message from the installers: >> ______________________________________________________ >> | Installation von LLVM >> |¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ >> | ^ >> | /!\ LLVM is already installed. >> | ¯¯¯ >> | Do you want to install the old version before >> | installing the new one? >> | >> | [ Ja ] [ Nein ] [ Abbrechen ] >> | >> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ >> Also note the denglish kauderwelsch: the title bar and the buttons >> are localized, but the message text isn't. >> >> > The button labels and message box title are provided by the Operating > System / Nullsoft Install System.To use this obviously defective "install system" is then a rather poor choice.> LLVM itself does not do any localization itself. > I'd be more concerned that if offers to "install the old version" > (rather than uninstall it).This seems to be a typo. I'd rather be concerned about the OLD version here, which might be ANY other version, older, newer, or the same, but just for the other processor architecture of the target OS! Do you consider such misleading messages appropriate for a product developed by professionals?> My guess this warning is a functionality provided by the Nullsoft Install > System that assumes that software only needs to be installed once on the > system. I wouldn't call it bogus, you may indeed not want to keep an older > version installed at the same time.Most obviously this "install system" was the wrong choice for LLVM. BUG #8: ~~~~~~~ The defective installer creates a shortcut "Uninstall LLVM" in the start menu, violating the MINIMUM requirements of the now 25 year old "Designed for Windows guidelines". JFTR: Windows ships with two builtin installers (SetupAPI and Windows Installer), there's no need to use a defective 3rd party product at all. Stefan
David Greene via llvm-dev
2020-Aug-21 16:49 UTC
[llvm-dev] Clang is a resource hog, the installers for Windows miss quite some files, and are defect!
Stefan Kanthak via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> writes:> "Michael Kruse" <llvmdev at meinersbur.de> wrote: > >> I think David is not referring to the capitalization of file names, but to >> "DUPLICATE", "WASTING", "NOT AMUSED", "BOGUS" etc. > > I EMPHASIZE in the only way possible with plain text.There are *many* ways to _emphasize_ text without shouting. ~~~~~~~>> It should be possible to report problems in a professional manner. > > It should also be possible to handle problem reports in a professional > manner!>From everything I have read, both Michael and David were veryprofessional in their responses. You're just not going to get a lot of sympathy when you approach things in an adversarial manner. It turns people off.>> Please remember that the project is made available by volunteers >> for free. We also have a dedicated bug tracker: bugs.llvm.org. > > You are free to enter the bugs I pointed out there.That's not the way it works in a project where people freely volunteer their time. If someone else feels this is a serious problem, they may very well file a proper bug. But if not, this report isn't going anywhere unless you file a bug and even then there's no guarantee people will have the time to work on it.> I don't use LLVM, so don't expect me to jump throught loops to report > obvious bugs.I guess I don't understand your concern then. If you don't use LLVM, why are you installing it and why do you care about its size?>> On UNIX systems, these are symlinks. > > UNIX and Windows are quite different.True.>> There are multiple potential equivalents to symlinks on Windows systems, >> the one matching UNIX systems the closest is relatively new and requires >> either Administrator rights or developer mode turned on. > > Hardlinks don't. And they are available on both systems.They aren't available on FAT32 filesystems though.>> Typically tools ported from a UNIX environment to Windows just copy the >> file instead symlinking to avoid dealing with issues such as when the >> installing on a non-NTFS file system (FAT, network drive, etc), > > Do you really want to tell that the installer LLVM uses on Windows was > ported from UNIX? REALITY CHECK, please! The default installation > goes into %ProgramFiles%\LLVM, which is located on NTFS.I am not familiar with the Windows installer. There's no installer as such for Unix-like systems. There probably is some way to detect the filesystem type of the install directory and create links. It's a matter of someone feeling it's important enough to do. Shouting about it won't make it happen faster.>> Since mass storage is cheap, there isn't a lot of motivation to save to >> invest time to save some space. However, you are free to invest that time >> yourself and submit patches. > > I'm even free not to use LLVM at all, but nevertheless see and report its > bugs and deficiencies here: be professional and fix themProfessionals don't make demands of others. You've been pointed to the correct process for reporting bugs. If you aren't able or willing to do that there's not a lot the community is going to do for you, especially if you keep disparaging its members. -David
Stefan Kanthak via llvm-dev
2020-Aug-21 17:41 UTC
[llvm-dev] Clang is a resource hog, the installers for Windows miss quite some files, and are defect!
"David Greene" <dag at hpe.com> wrote:> Stefan Kanthak via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> writes: > >> "Michael Kruse" <llvmdev at meinersbur.de> wrote: >> >>> I think David is not referring to the capitalization of file names, but to >>> "DUPLICATE", "WASTING", "NOT AMUSED", "BOGUS" etc. >> >> I EMPHASIZE in the only way possible with plain text. > > There are *many* ways to _emphasize_ text without shouting. > ~~~~~~~How ugly; I prefer UPPER CASE!>>> It should be possible to report problems in a professional manner. >> >> It should also be possible to handle problem reports in a professional >> manner! > > From everything I have read, both Michael and David were very > professional in their responses.Both had nothing better to do than to mock about my way of emphasizing! That's childish and completely unprofessional. [...]>> I don't use LLVM, so don't expect me to jump throught loops to report >> obvious bugs. > > I guess I don't understand your concern then. If you don't use LLVM, > why are you installing it and why do you care about its size?Who said I installed it? Some poor soul installed it because he got the advice to use LLVM/clang because "it is better than MinGW or MSVC/Visual Studio". After that he wondered why he can compile for i386, but can't link the compiled objects ... so he asked me. I VOLUNTARILY took my time to see what was installed, and how it was installed: I noticed the wasted 0.5GB and the missing clang-rt.*-i386.lib He was DEFINITELY not amused, and called the $*%@ who built this crap names. I but dared to copy clang-rt.builtins-{i386,x86-64}.lib and verified the still POOR performance, especially for 64-bit division on i386 and 128-bit division on AMD64. JFTR: __udivmoddi4 and __udivmodti4 are even slower than in LLVM 7.0.0! [...]>>> There are multiple potential equivalents to symlinks on Windows systems, >>> the one matching UNIX systems the closest is relatively new and requires >>> either Administrator rights or developer mode turned on. >> >> Hardlinks don't. And they are available on both systems. > > They aren't available on FAT32 filesystems though.The DEFAULT installation directory is on NTFS. JFTR: since Windows Vista, introduced 14 years ago, the boot partition must be NTFS. Stefan
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