llvm dev - Aug 2020 - Clang is a resource hog, the installers for Windows miss quite some files, and are defect!

Hi @ll,

BUGS #1 & #2:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The installer LLVM-10.0.0-win64.exe dumps the following DUPLICATE files
in "C:\Program Files\LLVM\bin", WASTING about 500MB disk space, which
is
nearly a third of the disk space occupied by the whole package:

| DIR "C:\Program Files\LLVM\bin" /O:-S
...
| 25.03.2020  12:15        83.258.880              clang-cl.exe
| 25.03.2020  12:03        83.258.880              clang.exe
| 25.03.2020  12:15        83.258.880              clang++.exe
| 25.03.2020  12:15        83.258.880              clang-cpp.exe
...
| 25.03.2020  12:15        57.812.480              lld-link.exe
| 25.03.2020  12:05        57.812.480              lld.exe
| 25.03.2020  12:15        57.812.480              ld.lld.exe
| 25.03.2020  12:15        57.812.480              ld64.lld.exe
| 25.03.2020  12:15        57.812.480              wasm-ld.exe
...
| 25.03.2020  12:15        18.182.144              llvm-ranlib.exe
| 25.03.2020  12:15        18.182.144              llvm-lib.exe
| 25.03.2020  12:00        18.182.144              llvm-ar.exe
|
| FC.exe "C:\Program Files\LLVM\bin\clang.exe" "C:\Program
Files\LLVM\bin\clang-cl.exe"
| Vergleichen der Dateien C:\PROGRAM FILES\LLVM\BIN\clang.exe und C:\PROGRAM
FILES
\LLVM\BIN\CLANG-CL.EXE
| FC: Keine Unterschiede gefunden
|
| FSUTIL.exe Hardlink List "C:\Program Files\LLVM\bin\clang.exe"
| \Program Files\LLVM\bin\clang.exe
...


Dito for LLVM-10.0.0-win32.exe:

| DIR "C:\Program Files (x86)\LLVM\bin" /O:-S
...
| 25.03.2020  11:21        77.862.912              clang-cpp.exe
| 25.03.2020  11:21        77.862.912              clang-cl.exe
| 25.03.2020  11:21        77.862.912              clang++.exe
| 25.03.2020  11:13        77.862.912              clang.exe
...
| 25.03.2020  11:22        54.811.648              ld.lld.exe
| 25.03.2020  11:22        54.811.648              ld64.lld.exe
| 25.03.2020  11:15        54.811.648              lld.exe
| 25.03.2020  11:22        54.811.648              lld-link.exe
| 25.03.2020  11:22        54.811.648              wasm-ld.exe
...
| 25.03.2020  11:21        17.346.560              llvm-ranlib.exe
| 25.03.2020  11:10        17.346.560              llvm-ar.exe
| 25.03.2020  11:21        17.346.560              llvm-lib.exe

Ever heard of hardlinks?
NTFS supports them since its introduction nearly 30 years ago, and
Windows NT provides an API to create them since 24 years.


BUGS #3 & #4:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Although the compiler/linker/... installed with both packages are able
to produce 32-bit as well as 64-bit executables, 32-bit executables
can't be linked with the 64-bit package, and vice versa: each package
contains only the clang_rt.*.lib for its own architecture.

The libraries for 32-bit targets are missing in LLVM-10.0.0-win64.exe,
and vice versa.

| DIR "C:\Program Files\LLVM\lib\clang\10.0.0\lib\windows\*-i386.lib"
...
| Datei nicht gefunden
...
| DIR "C:\Program Files
(x86)\LLVM\lib\clang\10.0.0\lib\windows\*-x86_64.lib"
...
| Datei nicht gefunden


BUG #5:
~~~~~~~

Poor souls who want to install the 64-bit package after/aside the
32-bit package (or vice versa) are greeted with the following BOGUS
message from the installers:
 ______________________________________________________
| Installation von LLVM
|¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
|  ^
| /!\ LLVM is already installed.
| ¯¯¯
|     Do you want to install the old version before
|     installing the new one?
|
|     [ Ja ] [ Nein ] [ Abbrechen ]
|
 ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Also note the denglish kauderwelsch: the title bar and the buttons
are localized, but the message text isn't.


NOT AMUSED
Stefan Kanthak

Please ease up on the all-caps/shouting and sarcasm. It's not suitable
in this forum.

Yes, people on the project have likely heard of hard links. Perhaps
there are practical reasons they're not suitable here, or someone
hasn't had the time, etc - perhaps you could contribute
patches/support for this?

As for the x86/x64 - while clang itself is a cross compiler, yeah, I'm
not sure any of the distributions include multiple target runtime
support (though, yeah, being able to install them side-by-side, either
as modules to the same installation, or at least both full
installations separately)

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 11:49 AM Stefan Kanthak via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> Hi @ll,
>
> BUGS #1 & #2:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> The installer LLVM-10.0.0-win64.exe dumps the following DUPLICATE files
> in "C:\Program Files\LLVM\bin", WASTING about 500MB disk space,
which is
> nearly a third of the disk space occupied by the whole package:
>
> | DIR "C:\Program Files\LLVM\bin" /O:-S
> ...
> | 25.03.2020  12:15        83.258.880              clang-cl.exe
> | 25.03.2020  12:03        83.258.880              clang.exe
> | 25.03.2020  12:15        83.258.880              clang++.exe
> | 25.03.2020  12:15        83.258.880              clang-cpp.exe
> ...
> | 25.03.2020  12:15        57.812.480              lld-link.exe
> | 25.03.2020  12:05        57.812.480              lld.exe
> | 25.03.2020  12:15        57.812.480              ld.lld.exe
> | 25.03.2020  12:15        57.812.480              ld64.lld.exe
> | 25.03.2020  12:15        57.812.480              wasm-ld.exe
> ...
> | 25.03.2020  12:15        18.182.144              llvm-ranlib.exe
> | 25.03.2020  12:15        18.182.144              llvm-lib.exe
> | 25.03.2020  12:00        18.182.144              llvm-ar.exe
> |
> | FC.exe "C:\Program Files\LLVM\bin\clang.exe" "C:\Program
Files\LLVM\bin\clang-cl.exe"
> | Vergleichen der Dateien C:\PROGRAM FILES\LLVM\BIN\clang.exe und
C:\PROGRAM FILES
> \LLVM\BIN\CLANG-CL.EXE
> | FC: Keine Unterschiede gefunden
> |
> | FSUTIL.exe Hardlink List "C:\Program Files\LLVM\bin\clang.exe"
> | \Program Files\LLVM\bin\clang.exe
> ...
>
>
> Dito for LLVM-10.0.0-win32.exe:
>
> | DIR "C:\Program Files (x86)\LLVM\bin" /O:-S
> ...
> | 25.03.2020  11:21        77.862.912              clang-cpp.exe
> | 25.03.2020  11:21        77.862.912              clang-cl.exe
> | 25.03.2020  11:21        77.862.912              clang++.exe
> | 25.03.2020  11:13        77.862.912              clang.exe
> ...
> | 25.03.2020  11:22        54.811.648              ld.lld.exe
> | 25.03.2020  11:22        54.811.648              ld64.lld.exe
> | 25.03.2020  11:15        54.811.648              lld.exe
> | 25.03.2020  11:22        54.811.648              lld-link.exe
> | 25.03.2020  11:22        54.811.648              wasm-ld.exe
> ...
> | 25.03.2020  11:21        17.346.560              llvm-ranlib.exe
> | 25.03.2020  11:10        17.346.560              llvm-ar.exe
> | 25.03.2020  11:21        17.346.560              llvm-lib.exe
>
> Ever heard of hardlinks?
> NTFS supports them since its introduction nearly 30 years ago, and
> Windows NT provides an API to create them since 24 years.
>
>
> BUGS #3 & #4:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Although the compiler/linker/... installed with both packages are able
> to produce 32-bit as well as 64-bit executables, 32-bit executables
> can't be linked with the 64-bit package, and vice versa: each package
> contains only the clang_rt.*.lib for its own architecture.
>
> The libraries for 32-bit targets are missing in LLVM-10.0.0-win64.exe,
> and vice versa.
>
> | DIR "C:\Program
Files\LLVM\lib\clang\10.0.0\lib\windows\*-i386.lib"
> ...
> | Datei nicht gefunden
> ...
> | DIR "C:\Program Files
(x86)\LLVM\lib\clang\10.0.0\lib\windows\*-x86_64.lib"
> ...
> | Datei nicht gefunden
>
>
> BUG #5:
> ~~~~~~~
>
> Poor souls who want to install the 64-bit package after/aside the
> 32-bit package (or vice versa) are greeted with the following BOGUS
> message from the installers:
>  ______________________________________________________
> | Installation von LLVM
> |¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> |  ^
> | /!\ LLVM is already installed.
> | ¯¯¯
> |     Do you want to install the old version before
> |     installing the new one?
> |
> |     [ Ja ] [ Nein ] [ Abbrechen ]
> |
>  ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> Also note the denglish kauderwelsch: the title bar and the buttons
> are localized, but the message text isn't.
>
>
> NOT AMUSED
> Stefan Kanthak
>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev

"David Blaikie" <dblaikie at gmail.com> wrote:
> Please ease up on the all-caps/shouting and sarcasm.
I'm easy: the LLVM project writes LLVM in caps, Windows' FC.exe
prints the filenames C:\PROGRAM FILES\LLVM\BIN\clang.exe and
C:\PROGRAM FILES\LLVM\BIN\CLANG-CL.EXE in caps, ...
> It's not suitable in this forum.
I don't wear a suit, and this is a mailing llist!
If you are but not interested in bug reports.
> Yes, people on the project have likely heard of hard links. Perhaps
> there are practical reasons they're not suitable here, or someone
> hasn't had the time, etc - perhaps you could contribute
> patches/support for this?
I don't use LLVM.
And I especially don't use vulnerable crap like executable installers.
> As for the x86/x64 - while clang itself is a cross compiler, yeah, I'm
> not sure any of the distributions include multiple target runtime
> support (though, yeah, being able to install them side-by-side, either
> as modules to the same installation, or at least both full
> installations separately)
BUG #6:
~~~~~~
The second installation overwrites the start menu shortcuts and registry
information of the first installation.

BUG #7:
~~~~~~
A side-by-side installation of LLVM-10.0.0-win32.exe and
LLVM-10.0.0-win64.exe wastes another 1.5GB instead of just some
28 MB for the libraries clang_rt.*-{i386,x86_64}.lib
That's a very lovely and tiny factor of 50 (in words: FIFTY).

still not amused
Stefan

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 11:49 AM Stefan Kanthak via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> Hi @ll,
>
> BUGS #1 & #2:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> The installer LLVM-10.0.0-win64.exe dumps the following DUPLICATE files
> in "C:\Program Files\LLVM\bin", WASTING about 500MB disk space,
which is
> nearly a third of the disk space occupied by the whole package:
>
> | DIR "C:\Program Files\LLVM\bin" /O:-S
> ...
> | 25.03.2020  12:15        83.258.880              clang-cl.exe
> | 25.03.2020  12:03        83.258.880              clang.exe
> | 25.03.2020  12:15        83.258.880              clang++.exe
> | 25.03.2020  12:15        83.258.880              clang-cpp.exe
> ...
> | 25.03.2020  12:15        57.812.480              lld-link.exe
> | 25.03.2020  12:05        57.812.480              lld.exe
> | 25.03.2020  12:15        57.812.480              ld.lld.exe
> | 25.03.2020  12:15        57.812.480              ld64.lld.exe
> | 25.03.2020  12:15        57.812.480              wasm-ld.exe
> ...
> | 25.03.2020  12:15        18.182.144              llvm-ranlib.exe
> | 25.03.2020  12:15        18.182.144              llvm-lib.exe
> | 25.03.2020  12:00        18.182.144              llvm-ar.exe
> |
> | FC.exe "C:\Program Files\LLVM\bin\clang.exe" "C:\Program
Files\LLVM\bin\clang-cl.exe"
> | Vergleichen der Dateien C:\PROGRAM FILES\LLVM\BIN\clang.exe und
C:\PROGRAM FILES
> \LLVM\BIN\CLANG-CL.EXE
> | FC: Keine Unterschiede gefunden
> |
> | FSUTIL.exe Hardlink List "C:\Program Files\LLVM\bin\clang.exe"
> | \Program Files\LLVM\bin\clang.exe
> ...
>
>
> Dito for LLVM-10.0.0-win32.exe:
>
> | DIR "C:\Program Files (x86)\LLVM\bin" /O:-S
> ...
> | 25.03.2020  11:21        77.862.912              clang-cpp.exe
> | 25.03.2020  11:21        77.862.912              clang-cl.exe
> | 25.03.2020  11:21        77.862.912              clang++.exe
> | 25.03.2020  11:13        77.862.912              clang.exe
> ...
> | 25.03.2020  11:22        54.811.648              ld.lld.exe
> | 25.03.2020  11:22        54.811.648              ld64.lld.exe
> | 25.03.2020  11:15        54.811.648              lld.exe
> | 25.03.2020  11:22        54.811.648              lld-link.exe
> | 25.03.2020  11:22        54.811.648              wasm-ld.exe
> ...
> | 25.03.2020  11:21        17.346.560              llvm-ranlib.exe
> | 25.03.2020  11:10        17.346.560              llvm-ar.exe
> | 25.03.2020  11:21        17.346.560              llvm-lib.exe
>
> Ever heard of hardlinks?
> NTFS supports them since its introduction nearly 30 years ago, and
> Windows NT provides an API to create them since 24 years.
>
>
> BUGS #3 & #4:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Although the compiler/linker/... installed with both packages are able
> to produce 32-bit as well as 64-bit executables, 32-bit executables
> can't be linked with the 64-bit package, and vice versa: each package
> contains only the clang_rt.*.lib for its own architecture.
>
> The libraries for 32-bit targets are missing in LLVM-10.0.0-win64.exe,
> and vice versa.
>
> | DIR "C:\Program
Files\LLVM\lib\clang\10.0.0\lib\windows\*-i386.lib"
> ...
> | Datei nicht gefunden
> ...
> | DIR "C:\Program Files
(x86)\LLVM\lib\clang\10.0.0\lib\windows\*-x86_64.lib"
> ...
> | Datei nicht gefunden
>
>
> BUG #5:
> ~~~~~~~
>
> Poor souls who want to install the 64-bit package after/aside the
> 32-bit package (or vice versa) are greeted with the following BOGUS
> message from the installers:
>  ______________________________________________________
> | Installation von LLVM
> |¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> |  ^
> | /!\ LLVM is already installed.
> | ¯¯¯
> |     Do you want to install the old version before
> |     installing the new one?
> |
> |     [ Ja ] [ Nein ] [ Abbrechen ]
> |
>  ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> Also note the denglish kauderwelsch: the title bar and the buttons
> are localized, but the message text isn't.
>
>
> NOT AMUSED
> Stefan Kanthak
>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev

I think David is not referring to the capitalization of file names, but to
"DUPLICATE", "WASTING", "NOT AMUSED",
"BOGUS" etc. It should be possible to
report problems in a professional manner. Please remember that the project
is made available by volunteers for free. We also have a dedicated bug
tracker: bugs.llvm.org.


Am Do., 20. Aug. 2020 um 13:49 Uhr schrieb Stefan Kanthak via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>:
> BUGS #1 & #2:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
On UNIX systems, these are symlinks. There are multiple potential
equivalents to symlinks on Windows systems, the one matching UNIX systems
the closest is relatively new and requires either Administrator rights or
developer mode turned on.Typically tools ported from a UNIX environment to
Windows just copy the file instead symlinking to avoid dealing with issues
such as when the installing on a non-NTFS file system (FAT, network drive,
etc), so does LLVM (
https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/blob/master/llvm/cmake/modules/LLVMInstallSymlink.cmake
).

Since mass storage is cheap, there isn't a lot of motivation to save to
invest time to save some space. However, you are free to invest that time
yourself and submit patches.

> BUG #5:
> ~~~~~~~
>
> Poor souls who want to install the 64-bit package after/aside the
> 32-bit package (or vice versa) are greeted with the following BOGUS
> message from the installers:
>  ______________________________________________________
> | Installation von LLVM
> |¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> |  ^
> | /!\ LLVM is already installed.
> | ¯¯¯
> |     Do you want to install the old version before
> |     installing the new one?
> |
> |     [ Ja ] [ Nein ] [ Abbrechen ]
> |
>  ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> Also note the denglish kauderwelsch: the title bar and the buttons
> are localized, but the message text isn't.
>
>
The button labels and message box title are provided by the Operating
System / Nullsoft Install System. LLVM itself does not do any localization
itself. I'd be more concerned that if offers to "install the old
version"
(rather than uninstall it).

My guess this warning is a functionality provided by the Nullsoft Install
System that assumes that software only needs to be installed once on the
system. I wouldn't call it bogus, you may indeed not want to keep an older
version installed at the same time.

Michael
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"Michael Kruse" <llvmdev at meinersbur.de> wrote:
> I think David is not referring to the capitalization of file names, but to
> "DUPLICATE", "WASTING", "NOT AMUSED",
"BOGUS" etc.
I EMPHASIZE in the only way possible with plain text.
> It should be possible to report problems in a professional manner.
It should also be possible to handle problem reports in a professional
manner!
> Please remember that the project is made available by volunteers
> for free. We also have a dedicated bug tracker: bugs.llvm.org.
You are free to enter the bugs I pointed out there.
I don't use LLVM, so don't expect me to jump throught loops to report
obvious bugs.
> Am Do., 20. Aug. 2020 um 13:49 Uhr schrieb Stefan Kanthak via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>:
>
>> BUGS #1 & #2:
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>
> On UNIX systems, these are symlinks.
UNIX and Windows are quite different.
> There are multiple potential equivalents to symlinks on Windows systems,
> the one matching UNIX systems the closest is relatively new and requires
> either Administrator rights or developer mode turned on.
Hardlinks don't. And they are available on both systems.
> Typically tools ported from a UNIX environment to Windows just copy the
> file instead symlinking to avoid dealing with issues such as when the
> installing on a non-NTFS file system (FAT, network drive, etc),
Do you really want to tell that the installer LLVM uses on Windows was
ported from UNIX?
REALITY CHECK, please!
The default installation goes into %ProgramFiles%\LLVM, which is located
on NTFS.
> so does LLVM (
https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/blob/master/llvm/cmake/modules/LLVMInstallSymlink.cmake
).
> Since mass storage is cheap, there isn't a lot of motivation to save to
> invest time to save some space. However, you are free to invest that time
> yourself and submit patches.
I'm even free not to use LLVM at all, but nevertheless see and report its
bugs and deficiencies here: be professional and fix them
>> BUG #5:
>> ~~~~~~~
>>
>> Poor souls who want to install the 64-bit package after/aside the
>> 32-bit package (or vice versa) are greeted with the following BOGUS
>> message from the installers:
>>  ______________________________________________________
>> | Installation von LLVM
>> |¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
>> |  ^
>> | /!\ LLVM is already installed.
>> | ¯¯¯
>> |     Do you want to install the old version before
>> |     installing the new one?
>> |
>> |     [ Ja ] [ Nein ] [ Abbrechen ]
>> |
>>  ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
>> Also note the denglish kauderwelsch: the title bar and the buttons
>> are localized, but the message text isn't.
>>
>>
> The button labels and message box title are provided by the Operating
> System / Nullsoft Install System.
To use this obviously defective "install system" is then a rather poor
choice.
> LLVM itself does not do any localization itself.
> I'd be more concerned that if offers to "install the old
version"
> (rather than uninstall it).
This seems to be a typo.
I'd rather be concerned about the OLD version here, which might be
ANY other version, older, newer, or the same, but just for the other
processor architecture of the target OS!

Do you consider such misleading messages appropriate for a product
developed by professionals?
> My guess this warning is a functionality provided by the Nullsoft Install
> System that assumes that software only needs to be installed once on the
> system. I wouldn't call it bogus, you may indeed not want to keep an
older
> version installed at the same time.
Most obviously this "install system" was the wrong choice for LLVM.

BUG #8:
~~~~~~~

The defective installer creates a shortcut "Uninstall LLVM" in the
start menu, violating the MINIMUM requirements of the now 25 year old
"Designed for Windows guidelines".

JFTR: Windows ships with two builtin installers (SetupAPI and Windows
      Installer), there's no need to use a defective 3rd party product
      at all.

Stefan

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 08:45:33PM +0200, Stefan Kanthak via llvm-dev
wrote:
> Ever heard of hardlinks?
Ever heard of voluntary projects? The Windows installer is provided
best-effort by some people to reduce the barrier of entrace for Windows
users. It is certainly not paid work. Your patronizing tone is not going
to make anyone work on improving things. You don't provide any fixes
either. At best, your mails are going to get ignored by those interested
in the installer, if don't just come to taking the conclusion that the
effort is not appreciated and going to remove them in first place.

I would really suggest you to take a class on how to provide positive
feedback. Otherwise, I would kindly request that you just leave behind
this community and don't come back. The interactions with your mails
have so far been far more harmful than any value they provided.

Please don't bother with a reply.

Not amused,
Joerg