llvm dev - Jul 2016 - Suggestion to Stop Cross Posting Discussions

Dear All,

Within the past few months, there have been several discussions that 
relate to LLVM and its sub-projects (such as the discussions on moving 
to Git and the Code of Conduct).  To ensure that these discussions reach 
all community members, people have been cross-posting these messages to 
llvmdev, cfe-dev, and every other -dev you can think of.

This is becoming a headache for me (and possibly other mailing list 
admins) because replies are often sent to every list, but not all users 
are subscribed to every list.  As a result, we're moderating messages 
for people because they're subscribed to llvm-dev but not openmp-dev, or 
they are on cfe-dev but not llvm-dev, etc.

Can we keep these policy discussions on llvm-dev and just expect people 
to subscribe to llvm-dev if they want to particpate? Alternatively, 
could we create a new mailing list for these discussions?

I'd rather spend time moderating first-poster posts and discarding SPAM 
than ensuring that all of you can post to all the lists.

Regards,

John Criswell

-- 
John Criswell
Assistant Professor
Department of Computer Science, University of Rochester
http://www.cs.rochester.edu/u/criswell

----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Criswell via llvm-dev" <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>
> To: llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> Sent: Tuesday, July 5, 2016 1:51:27 PM
> Subject: [llvm-dev] Suggestion to Stop Cross Posting Discussions
> 
> Dear All,
> 
> Within the past few months, there have been several discussions that
> relate to LLVM and its sub-projects (such as the discussions on
> moving
> to Git and the Code of Conduct).  To ensure that these discussions
> reach
> all community members, people have been cross-posting these messages
> to
> llvmdev, cfe-dev, and every other -dev you can think of.
> 
> This is becoming a headache for me (and possibly other mailing list
> admins) because replies are often sent to every list, but not all
> users
> are subscribed to every list.  As a result, we're moderating messages
> for people because they're subscribed to llvm-dev but not openmp-dev,
> or
> they are on cfe-dev but not llvm-dev, etc.
> 
> Can we keep these policy discussions on llvm-dev and just expect
> people
> to subscribe to llvm-dev if they want to particpate? Alternatively,
> could we create a new mailing list for these discussions?
> 
> I'd rather spend time moderating first-poster posts and discarding
> SPAM
> than ensuring that all of you can post to all the lists.
Perhaps this is the easiest solution: Make it so that anyone subscribed to any
of the -dev lists can post to all of them.

Alternatively, we could have a "community" list to which anyone
subscribed to any of the -dev lists is automatically subscribed.

We have a lot of people who are subscribed, for example, to cfe-dev and not to
llvm-dev, and I'm not sure that making them received backend-related
messages just to catch community-wide discussions is reasonable.

 -Hal
> 
> Regards,
> 
> John Criswell
> 
> --
> John Criswell
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Computer Science, University of Rochester
> http://www.cs.rochester.edu/u/criswell
> 
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
> 
-- 
Hal Finkel
Assistant Computational Scientist
Leadership Computing Facility
Argonne National Laboratory

+1 to do something, whether that something is to mail only on llvm-dev, 
or to move those discussions to a 'community' or 'cross-project'
list of
some sort.

I -am- subscribed to cfe-def and llvm-dev, and as a result, I get most 
of these messages twice.  I also have mail rules to put cfe-dev email in 
one folder and llvm-dev email in another folder. When both mailing lists 
are involved, the discussions end up in my llvm-dev folder, but 
occasionally, someone will only reply on one of the lists.  I then get 
to follow the discussion across folders, and that's no fun.


On 7/5/2016 1:59 PM, Hal Finkel via llvm-dev wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John Criswell via llvm-dev" <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>
>> To: llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 5, 2016 1:51:27 PM
>> Subject: [llvm-dev] Suggestion to Stop Cross Posting Discussions
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> Within the past few months, there have been several discussions that
>> relate to LLVM and its sub-projects (such as the discussions on
>> moving
>> to Git and the Code of Conduct).  To ensure that these discussions
>> reach
>> all community members, people have been cross-posting these messages
>> to
>> llvmdev, cfe-dev, and every other -dev you can think of.
>>
>> This is becoming a headache for me (and possibly other mailing list
>> admins) because replies are often sent to every list, but not all
>> users
>> are subscribed to every list.  As a result, we're moderating
messages
>> for people because they're subscribed to llvm-dev but not
openmp-dev,
>> or
>> they are on cfe-dev but not llvm-dev, etc.
>>
>> Can we keep these policy discussions on llvm-dev and just expect
>> people
>> to subscribe to llvm-dev if they want to particpate? Alternatively,
>> could we create a new mailing list for these discussions?
>>
>> I'd rather spend time moderating first-poster posts and discarding
>> SPAM
>> than ensuring that all of you can post to all the lists.
> Perhaps this is the easiest solution: Make it so that anyone subscribed to
any of the -dev lists can post to all of them.
>
> Alternatively, we could have a "community" list to which anyone
subscribed to any of the -dev lists is automatically subscribed.
>
> We have a lot of people who are subscribed, for example, to cfe-dev and not
to llvm-dev, and I'm not sure that making them received backend-related
messages just to catch community-wide discussions is reasonable.
>
>   -Hal
>
>> Regards,
>>
>> John Criswell
>>
>> --
>> John Criswell
>> Assistant Professor
>> Department of Computer Science, University of Rochester
>> http://www.cs.rochester.edu/u/criswell
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> LLVM Developers mailing list
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>>
-- 
Employee of Qualcomm Innovation Center, Inc.
Qualcomm Innovation Center, Inc. is a member of Code Aurora Forum, a Linux
Foundation Collaborative Project

On 5 July 2016 at 19:51, John Criswell via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> This is becoming a headache for me (and possibly other mailing list admins)
> because replies are often sent to every list, but not all users are
> subscribed to every list.  As a result, we're moderating messages for
people
> because they're subscribed to llvm-dev but not openmp-dev, or they are
on
> cfe-dev but not llvm-dev, etc.
Hi John,

Apologies for creating this problem, but as you said, not everyone
subscribes to llvm-dev, but for that kind of discussion, we really
should get *everyone's* input.

Moving to a new list (ex. llvm-foundation, llvm-admin, etc) won't get
everyone's attention by a long shot, and managing multiple lists could
increase potential problems to list admins, so the only way out I can
see is to just "expect people interested in the status of LLVM as a
project to subscribe to llvm-dev".

I'm happy with that solution, but maybe we need to change some
documentation in Clang, LLDB, LLD, libraries etc. to make sure that
this is clear to all their users that wouldn't subscribe to llvm-dev
otherwise.

cheers,
--renato

For ISO C++ we long ago created an 'all' list for topics that were
organisational and not technically specific to an aspect of the Standard such as
Library, or Core, or Extensions, etc..  For the most part I think that since the
early 1990s when these lists started, the 'all'
reflector/distribution-list has worked really well.  I still get all the ISO C++
mailings, and the signal to noise ratio is pretty good in this regard.

For topics such as GIT versus SVN hosting, or code of conduct, and such like
(even social events!); the use of a separate list is well justified and means
that we can automatically filter and manage our emails in a more useful way.

Hal's 'community' suggestion is essentially the same thing as the
ISO C++ 'all' list, and it has worked really well over the years and
I'd definitely favour that approach.

	MartinO

-----Original Message-----
From: llvm-dev [mailto:llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org] On Behalf Of Hal
Finkel via llvm-dev
Sent: 05 July 2016 20:00
To: John Criswell <jtcriswel at gmail.com>
Cc: llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] Suggestion to Stop Cross Posting Discussions

----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Criswell via llvm-dev" <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>
> To: llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> Sent: Tuesday, July 5, 2016 1:51:27 PM
> Subject: [llvm-dev] Suggestion to Stop Cross Posting Discussions
> 
> Dear All,
> 
> Within the past few months, there have been several discussions that 
> relate to LLVM and its sub-projects (such as the discussions on moving 
> to Git and the Code of Conduct).  To ensure that these discussions 
> reach all community members, people have been cross-posting these 
> messages to llvmdev, cfe-dev, and every other -dev you can think of.
> 
> This is becoming a headache for me (and possibly other mailing list
> admins) because replies are often sent to every list, but not all 
> users are subscribed to every list.  As a result, we're moderating 
> messages for people because they're subscribed to llvm-dev but not 
> openmp-dev, or they are on cfe-dev but not llvm-dev, etc.
> 
> Can we keep these policy discussions on llvm-dev and just expect 
> people to subscribe to llvm-dev if they want to particpate? 
> Alternatively, could we create a new mailing list for these 
> discussions?
> 
> I'd rather spend time moderating first-poster posts and discarding 
> SPAM than ensuring that all of you can post to all the lists.
Perhaps this is the easiest solution: Make it so that anyone subscribed to any
of the -dev lists can post to all of them.

Alternatively, we could have a "community" list to which anyone
subscribed to any of the -dev lists is automatically subscribed.

We have a lot of people who are subscribed, for example, to cfe-dev and not to
llvm-dev, and I'm not sure that making them received backend-related
messages just to catch community-wide discussions is reasonable.

 -Hal
> 
> Regards,
> 
> John Criswell
> 
> --
> John Criswell
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Computer Science, University of Rochester 
> http://www.cs.rochester.edu/u/criswell
> 
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
> 
--
Hal Finkel
Assistant Computational Scientist
Leadership Computing Facility
Argonne National Laboratory
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