llvm dev - Oct 2015 - RFC: Introducing an LLVM Community Code of Conduct

On 13 October 2015 at 17:16, Kuperstein, Michael M via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> The FreeBSD CoC is, IMHO, much better in this respect (
https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html ).
Nice! This is so succinct and beautiful!

It doesn't need an overseeing foundation to take opaque decisions, and
focus on what's really important: the code.

I particularly like "Do not make it personal. Do not take it
personally.". It means *so* much in such a short sentence.

cheers,
--renato

PS: note, no bias on the discrimination list. Though, they still use
"race"... no one's perfect. :)

Renato Golin via llvm-dev wrote:
> On 13 October 2015 at 17:16, Kuperstein, Michael M via llvm-dev
> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>> The FreeBSD CoC is, IMHO, much better in this respect (
https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html ).
> 
> Nice! This is so succinct and beautiful!
> 
> It doesn't need an overseeing foundation to take opaque decisions, and
> focus on what's really important: the code.
> 
> I particularly like "Do not make it personal. Do not take it
> personally.". It means *so* much in such a short sentence.
Agreed!









More Voltaire, less cultural authoritarian overreach.

On 13 Oct 2015, at 17:51, Renato Golin via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> 
> On 13 October 2015 at 17:16, Kuperstein, Michael M via llvm-dev
> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>> The FreeBSD CoC is, IMHO, much better in this respect (
https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html ).
> 
> Nice! This is so succinct and beautiful!
As one of the authors of this CoC, I’d add a big caveat that it’s a working
document and that there are several issues with it in the current form.  I
absolutely would not recommend any other community adopting it as-is, though
hopefully soon we’ll have a more final version.
> It doesn't need an overseeing foundation to take opaque decisions, and
> focus on what's really important: the code.
Note that we can do this in FreeBSD, because we have an elected Core Team.  The
FreeBSD Foundation has spent the last 15 or so years finding its current role
(and has offered the LLVM Foundation the benefit of this experience).  Unlike
the Foundation, which is an independent entity from the project (though one that
consults with Core on a regular basis and provides valuable services to the
project), Core is 100% accountable to the FreeBSD project.  Every two years,
anyone active committer (defined as someone who has committed something to a
FreeBSD repository in the last year) is entitled to vote for the new Core Team
(and, of course, to stand for election).

This means that the final authority for any issue with the project rests with
the committers: if a Core Team is seen as not representing the views of the
project, then it can be replaced.  Thus, having Core as the enforcers of the CoC
is not delegating administration of the community outside of the community.

No Code of Conduct can work if it is externally imposed - it must codify what
the community believes is acceptable behaviour, allow people outside of the
community to understand the ideals of that community, and present a clear line
for members of the community to understand where they’ve crossed it.  As I’ve
recently learned, this is a nontrivial endeavour.
> I particularly like "Do not make it personal. Do not take it
> personally.". It means *so* much in such a short sentence.
Of course, it does have some good points :-)

David

> On Oct 13, 2015, at 10:23 AM, David Chisnall via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> 
> On 13 Oct 2015, at 17:51, Renato Golin via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>> 
>> On 13 October 2015 at 17:16, Kuperstein, Michael M via llvm-dev
>> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>> The FreeBSD CoC is, IMHO, much better in this respect (
https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html ).
>> 
>> Nice! This is so succinct and beautiful!
> 
> As one of the authors of this CoC, I’d add a big caveat that it’s a working
document and that there are several issues with it in the current form.  I
absolutely would not recommend any other community adopting it as-is, though
hopefully soon we’ll have a more final version.
> 
>> It doesn't need an overseeing foundation to take opaque decisions,
and
>> focus on what's really important: the code.
> 
> Note that we can do this in FreeBSD, because we have an elected Core Team. 
The FreeBSD Foundation has spent the last 15 or so years finding its current
role (and has offered the LLVM Foundation the benefit of this experience). 
Unlike the Foundation, which is an independent entity from the project (though
one that consults with Core on a regular basis and provides valuable services to
the project), Core is 100% accountable to the FreeBSD project.  Every two years,
anyone active committer (defined as someone who has committed something to a
FreeBSD repository in the last year) is entitled to vote for the new Core Team
(and, of course, to stand for election).
> 
> This means that the final authority for any issue with the project rests
with the committers: if a Core Team is seen as not representing the views of the
project, then it can be replaced.  Thus, having Core as the enforcers of the CoC
is not delegating administration of the community outside of the community.
> 
> No Code of Conduct can work if it is externally imposed - it must codify
what the community believes is acceptable behaviour, allow people outside of the
community to understand the ideals of that community, and present a clear line
for members of the community to understand where they’ve crossed it.  As I’ve
recently learned, this is a nontrivial endeavour.
> 
Again, the code of conduct advisory committee would be made up of people who are
current members of the community.

As for the LLVM Foundation board, it was designed to made up of people who are
active in the LLVM project (and not just by submitting patches as there are many
important roles in the project). You seem to apply that the board is made up of
people outside the community, which it is not. Their term is 2 years, where they
can be re-elected or new board members brought in. I’m happy to send you our
Bylaws if you are interested.

-Tanya
>> I particularly like "Do not make it personal. Do not take it
>> personally.". It means *so* much in such a short sentence.
> 
> Of course, it does have some good points :-)
> 
> David
> 
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> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
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> On Oct 13, 2015, at 10:23 AM, Bill Kelly via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> 
> Renato Golin via llvm-dev wrote:
>> On 13 October 2015 at 17:16, Kuperstein, Michael M via llvm-dev
>> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>> The FreeBSD CoC is, IMHO, much better in this respect (
https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html ).
>> 
>> Nice! This is so succinct and beautiful!
>> 
>> It doesn't need an overseeing foundation to take opaque decisions,
and
>> focus on what's really important: the code.
>> 
>> I particularly like "Do not make it personal. Do not take it
>> personally.". It means *so* much in such a short sentence.
> 
> Agreed!
No offense to the FreeBSD CoC, but I really dislike the line “Do not take it
personally”. Quite often when someone is offended, the offender will justify
their statements by saying “You are just taking it personally”. I find this
frequently used towards women (not saying this community necessarily).

I would prefer this not used in our CoC. 

-Tanya