hi guys, i'd like to have your opinion on using ogm or mkv containers for
theora videos. since you recommend ogg containers for theora and vorbis
officially i've been insisting on using .ogg. but for example eightsoft put
ogm instead of ogg for theora on the last build of "super" and i send
an e-mail to them about this issue. and i didn't get the whole idea on the
explaination of ogm subject at wikipedia...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogg_Media i only know this
http://www.xiph.org/container/ogm.html
i am doing several art projects and i'd like to distribute the free video
and audio content just with theora/vorbis codecs using ogg. one of the most
important conceptual part of my projects are using/supporting true free
standards. so i am very much interested about your opinion on ogm and mkv. i
know this mailing list usually on technical issues and i am not a coder but i am
very much interested in what xiph does and i follow your list. native firefox
support is going to be great for theora and i am waiting it to be launched to
share the art projects i have doing with groups of art students for 3 years. but
we need more end user tools to (not for coders) to be able to use theora more
effectively. i will write another e-mail about one particular issue i am
confronted if anybody is interested.
.-_-.
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Can you send a link to information on "super" and it theora support? "Ogm" for theora is very unusual. Are you sure they aren't just using Ogg/theora with the wrong extension (ogg and ogv are correct). Can you point us to a file from it? On 5/17/09, Ort Ak <ortonak at yahoo.com> wrote:> hi guys, i'd like to have your opinion on using ogm or mkv containers for > theora videos. since you recommend ogg containers for theora and vorbis > officially i've been insisting on using .ogg. but for example eightsoft put > ogm instead of ogg for theora on the last build of "super" and i send an > e-mail to them about this issue. and i didn't get the whole idea on the > explaination of ogm subject at wikipedia... > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogg_Media i only know this > http://www.xiph.org/container/ogm.html > > i am doing several art projects and i'd like to distribute the free video > and audio content just with theora/vorbis codecs using ogg. one of the most > important conceptual part of my projects are using/supporting true free > standards. so i am very much interested about your opinion on ogm and mkv. i > know this mailing list usually on technical issues and i am not a coder but > i am very much interested in what xiph does and i follow your list. native > firefox support is going to be great for theora and i am waiting it to be > launched to share the art projects i have doing with groups of art students > for 3 years. but we need more end user tools to (not for coders) to be able > to use theora more effectively. i will write another e-mail about one > particular issue i am confronted if anybody is interested. > > .-_-. > > > >
Hello, * OGM usually refers to an outdated, non-maintained hacked version of the Ogg container that supports non-free codecs like DivX or XviD. Its main use was to have XviD video with Vorbis audio. OGM is not just Ogg with a different file extension. * Ogg is the Xiph.org in-house container. It's mostly/only(?) used for free codecs (only for free codecs official support exists). Most content in Vorbis/Theora uses this container. Ogg is the "standard" way of using Vorbis/Theora and every player support Vorbis/Theora will handle this container. Note that these days .ogv is the recommended extension for Ogg-files that contain video - thus .ogv *is* supposed to be Ogg (unlike .ogm). * Matroska is a versatile and feature-rich container to use with basically any codec (free or non-free). There's nothing wrong with it as far as I know, but of course it somewhat blurs the line between free and non-free technology (if this is a problem or not mostly depends on personal opinions). I assume if you intend to use Vorbis/Theora "plain simple Ogg" may be a "safer choice" to make sure most people can view your content. Maik Ort Ak wrote:> hi guys, i'd like to have your opinion on using ogm or mkv containers > for theora videos. since you recommend ogg containers for theora and > vorbis officially i've been insisting on using .ogg. but for example > eightsoft put ogm instead of ogg for theora on the last build of "super" > and i send an e-mail to them about this issue. and i didn't get the > whole idea on the explaination of ogm subject at wikipedia... > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogg_Media i only know this > http://www.xiph.org/container/ogm.html > > i am doing several art projects and i'd like to distribute the free > video and audio content just with theora/vorbis codecs using ogg. one of > the most important conceptual part of my projects are using/supporting > true free standards. so i am very much interested about your opinion on > ogm and mkv. i know this mailing list usually on technical issues and i > am not a coder but i am very much interested in what xiph does and i > follow your list. native firefox support is going to be great for theora > and i am waiting it to be launched to share the art projects i have > doing with groups of art students for 3 years. but we need more end user > tools to (not for coders) to be able to use theora more effectively. i > will write another e-mail about one particular issue i am confronted if > anybody is interested. > > .-_-. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > theora mailing list > theora at xiph.org > http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/theora
i got an answer from erightsoft for my e-mail (you can see below) and e-mailed back explaining that things are not completely as they know... i kindly asked them to add ogg support besides ogm and mkv since it is recommended container by xiph.org... they offered me renaming the extension as .ogg as you can see below . so it is also possible that they might be using the name ogm instead of ogg... but it is not right anyway, i explained them so... but i will ask you one thing: is it just the same as original ogg if i change the extension of a ogm to ogg... is there a way to identify if the container is originally an ogg or ogm for the END USER... another important thing is that subject about ogm in wikipedia can be misleading... i first read about ogm at wikipedia and thought it was also supported by xiph.org. someone who knows more than me about the issue should change it on wikipedia. as you can see from the answer to my e-mail from erightsoft below, they know about ogm from wikipedia, too... From: "support at erightsoft.com" <support at erightsoft.com> To: Ort Ak <ortonak at yahoo.com> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 9:18:21 AM Subject: Re: super ogg support Hello, Thank you for your email and your interest in SUPER(C) The term "Ogg" is commonly used to refer to audio file format Ogg Vorbis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogg The term "Ogm", means Ogg Media file, is a container format (for video, audio and subtitle streams) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogg_Media SUPER(C) supports both of them as input and as output.. You will find the Output container for the rendered Video/Audio Ogg Media file under: [OGM] and the the Output container for the rendered FLAC or Vorbis Audio Only files under: [OGG (Audio Only)] Once you render an [OGM] Video/Audio Ogg Media file, feel free to rename the extension to OGG if you wish. Sincerely, Support Service Team support at erightsoft.com .-_-. ________________________________ From: Ort Ak <ortonak at yahoo.com> To: Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com>; theora at xiph.org Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 4:21:59 AM Subject: Re: [theora] ogg, ogm or mkv it says this on changelog [ADD] OGG (Audio Only) Output Container, rename the old OGG(Video, Audio) to OGM(Video, Audio) [ADD] Support to encode, play and render vorbis (very high quality) with the OGG (Audio Only) container http://www.erightsoft.com/%5EP/supdropdt.html i don't think they are using it with wrong ext because there is also an .ogg option besides .ogm, in the container format list but it is just for audio!. it says "ogg(audio only)". but in the previous build there was an ogg option for video that i have been using and i cannot find the .exe for the older build anymore, anywhere and i have written to them about my disappointment not seeing ogg in the video container list... mkv and ogm are offered for theora on the new build.... by the way i have just discovered your http://lists.xiph.org/container/ page, which has a good explanation on the issue, on xiph.org from a link from another website. but i didn't see any link to that page from your website even though i have been checking your website for months. if there is any, it must be "hidden":) and people cannot reach it easily, just to let you know .-_-. ________________________________ From: Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> To: Ort Ak <ortonak at yahoo.com>; theora at xiph.org Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 3:29:19 AM Subject: Re: [theora] ogg, ogm or mkv Can you send a link to information on "super" and it theora support? "Ogm" for theora is very unusual. Are you sure they aren't just using Ogg/theora with the wrong extension (ogg and ogv are correct). Can you point us to a file from it? On 5/17/09, Ort Ak <ortonak at yahoo.com> wrote:> hi guys, i'd like to have your opinion on using ogm or mkv containers for > theora videos. since you recommend ogg containers for theora and vorbis > officially i've been insisting on using .ogg. but for example eightsoft put > ogm instead of ogg for theora on the last build of "super" and i send an > e-mail to them about this issue. and i didn't get the whole idea on the > explaination of ogm subject at wikipedia... > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogg_Media i only know this > http://www.xiph.org/container/ogm.html > > i am doing several art projects and i'd like to distribute the free video > and audio content just with theora/vorbis codecs using ogg. one of the most > important conceptual part of my projects are using/supporting true free > standards. so i am very much interested about your opinion on ogm and mkv. i > know this mailing list usually on technical issues and i am not a coder but > i am very much interested in what xiph does and i follow your list. native > firefox support is going to be great for theora and i am waiting it to be > launched to share the art projects i have doing with groups of art students > for 3 years. but we need more end user tools to (not for coders) to be able > to use theora more effectively. i will write another e-mail about one > particular issue i am confronted if anybody is interested. > > .-_-. > > > >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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maybe i can try to write my theora experience as a regular user. it may be helpful to understand what problems regular people are facing when trying to use theora... i am advanced in video but not into technical issues and i am doing art projects with a political approach to free software and free content. this will be long and possiblly no one will read it. i am not writing these to complain but just to help (discuss) the wide(r) usage of theora.... i am very much interested in your work and been exploring whatever i can find on the internet taking xiph.org's website as a reference... but for example, i heard about .ogv extension for the first time in this mailing list from ivo's mail below... not even when we were discussing about ogm mkv and ogg... the theora videos in archive.org and ffmpeg2theora(last version) converted videos have .ogv extension but i didn't think that it is the choice of xiph... even in faq at theora page .ogv is not mentioned... it says "Ogg is the transport layer that both are stored in, so a video file will be Theora-encoded data inside an Ogg file, while audio is normally Vorbis-encoded data inside an ogg file. " http://theora.org/faq/ you are doing great work on theora but regular users don't get your recent improvements and they are using the previous releases because most converter developers using theora do not update the software with your latest releases... i know that this cannot be controlled by you but there should be something to be done... my theora experience is as follows... i have been making art projects and wanted to distribute them just with free standarts... 3 years ago i only new about xvid;) but i knew that it wasn't what i was looking for... last years i heard about ogg theora and it was just what i was looking for as means of its "free" approach... but hasn't been esay to convert my videos to theora... unfortunately i am on pc but this is somehow good for this point because most of the people do use pc... ffmpeg2theora is mentioned everywhere and it is great but a regular person cannot use it! (it says " a user-friendly way" on xiph's website) people even don't know how to run it! i didn't even use dos in my whole life... it may be simple for someone who is familiar with dos but most people are not... i just found how to use it because someone "explained" it on a forum as "run cmd, carry it into it, carry the file you want to convert, hit enter". this may be funny for you to explain this but without this explanation it means nothing as a conversion tool for a person who makes video. because it doesn't "open" when you click on it as we pc users think how it is supposed to work:) i am not an IT idiot, somehow i can use ffmpeg2theora now but it was also great to find a gui for it called gfrontend ffmpeg2theora. it can make batch convertion and settings can be adjusted easily be someone who is familiar with video.... it mustn't be that difficult for a developer (who wants theora to be used for regular people) to do a gui for ffmpeg2 theora... but the problem is also that it must be maintained as the new releases of theora come out... gfrontend still uses the old release and a regular person like me will be using it thinking that s/he is making recent ogg theora files... it creates ogg files not ogv... if someone reads the documentation of the program (no! regular people don't) they can make it use the latest release of ffmpeg2theora but still the extension will be ogg not ogv (although there is skeleton)... these are minor things but confusing for regular people... i have also written you about the issue with "super", which is in the list of theora encoders at wikipedia article... i have the latest release of vlc (which is also in the list) but it says ogg/ogm in the conversion list... vlc produces a theora video using the latest release but the extension is .ps (have no idea what it is... but this is some kind of an improvement because previous versions of vlc didn't even create a file in pc)... it is ok if you change it to .ogv but this is not the point, people don't know about these issues... i have also used some other programs with gui on windows but none seems to benefit the latest release... also the problem is that, even if they upgrade to the latest release the future releases will not be updated.... i think the solution is that xiph announces an "official" gui converter for all platforms that will be updated as the work on theora develops.... i know it is some kind of a waste of time for you to work on a gui but it is vital for the widespread of theora... it must be usable (not only to watch, also to convert to, because if it is not converted, it cannot be watched, there will be no video to watch!) by regular people to have common usage... for example in my last project i am working with art students and they need to concatenate (not even edit just add the videos end by end) some theora videos to make remixes but i cannot recommend them any software that they can USE... they are insisting on using other codecs that they used to and know how to work with... because there is no software that they can USE for theora on pc... sorry for this long mail but i just wanted to explain some points that you may not be aware of while working great on this projects... i am trying to do my best to support theora, because it is very important for free culture but theora needs a public face... .-_-. ________________________________ From: Ivo Emanuel Gon?alves <justivo at gmail.com> To: Orton AKINCI aka .-_-. <ortonak at yahoo.com> Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 1:13:07 AM Subject: Re: [theora] ogg, ogm or mkv On 5/24/09, Orton AKINCI aka .-_-. <ortonak at yahoo.com> wrote:> i did so:i run the "super" converted .ogm file through ogginfo and it gave > the following... > > so does this mean "super" creates "pure ogg" files but name the extension as > .ogm... and will it be "pure ogg theora orbis video" if i just rename the > .ogm extension as .ogg?.ogv actually. We use .ogv for Ogg video now. As you can see by the ogginfo output, it's a legacy Theora/Vorbis file (newer ones have an extra stream called "Skeleton"). It's pure Ogg. No OGM hacks. Hope that helped. You should contact the makers of that software, though. First to update their encoder to a newer one so they get standard files like ffmpeg2theora does. Second to use the proper file extension, i.e. ogv. Thanks for your interest in Ogg and underlying technologies! -Ivo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/theora/attachments/20090524/1ccf938d/attachment.htm