I am reading the live coverage of WWDC keynote here:
http://www.macrumorslive.com/web/
They talked about a new feature in OS X/Leopard: "Time Machine".
Does it sound like instant snapshot and rollback to you?
I don''t know how else this can be implemented.
10:37 am with time machine, you can get those files back by
entering a date or time
10:35 am ever had time where you work on a doc and you do a
save as and overwrote the wrong one?
10:35 am coolest part - and reason we call it that
- whole new way of backing up files
10:35 am backup to HD, or server
10:35 am can restore everything, or just one file at a time
10:34 am can be right where you were when the HD drive
10:34 am automatically backs up mac you change a file,
it automatically backs up photos, music, documents,
files folder, everything then you can restore everything
10:34 am plan to change all of that
Time Machine
10:33 am how many use automated software to stay always backed up?
only 4%
Tao
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Certainly sounds intriguing. From a ZFS standpoint, the easiest way to do this would be to take a snapshot on every txg - not sure how one would do it in a non-COW filesystem without inducing unacceptable overhead. This is an expansion of the ''user undo'' functionality that''s been discussed before, as it covers changes to a file, as opposed to just deleting it outright. The hard part (besides the underlying filesystem implementation) is to how to administer this space. If I fill up my hard drive, does it start to take away from my backup space? Do I just set a backup size? Is it per-folder or per-filesystem? Do I have control over the behavior once the backup is full? And for non-GUI users, how does one access these other versions, and know how much space they''re taking up? It also sounds like there is some higher level integration with their apps. For example, they describe dragging "backwards through time" in iPhoto. This needs some clear hooks to iPhoto so it knows when to refresh the visual content, etc. I doubt they actually rollback the whole filesystem - it''s much more likely that they have hooks in the critical apps which know how to look for their "alternate" copie Hopefully we''ll hear some more details about how this is implemented, as well as how they deal with the out-of-space edge conditions. - Eric On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 01:04:22PM -0500, Tao Chen wrote:> I am reading the live coverage of WWDC keynote here: > http://www.macrumorslive.com/web/ > > They talked about a new feature in OS X/Leopard: "Time Machine". > Does it sound like instant snapshot and rollback to you? > I don''t know how else this can be implemented. > > 10:37 am with time machine, you can get those files back by > entering a date or time > 10:35 am ever had time where you work on a doc and you do a > save as and overwrote the wrong one? > 10:35 am coolest part - and reason we call it that > - whole new way of backing up files > 10:35 am backup to HD, or server > 10:35 am can restore everything, or just one file at a time > 10:34 am can be right where you were when the HD drive > 10:34 am automatically backs up mac you change a file, > it automatically backs up photos, music, documents, > files folder, everything then you can restore everything > 10:34 am plan to change all of that > Time Machine > 10:33 am how many use automated software to stay always backed up? > only 4% > > Tao> _______________________________________________ > zfs-discuss mailing list > zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org > http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss-- Eric Schrock, Solaris Kernel Development http://blogs.sun.com/eschrock
There are some more details here: http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/timemachine.html In particular, the backups are done to a separate drive. This means that they can''t be using traditional COW techniques (not that such a thing is possible with HSFS), so it''s unclear what kind of performance impact this would have on your machine. I''m sure we''ll hear some details as people actually get their hands on the software. - Eric -- Eric Schrock, Solaris Kernel Development http://blogs.sun.com/eschrock
Reading that site, it sounds EXACTLY like snapshots. It doesn''t sound to require a second disk, it just gives you the option of backing up to one. Sounds like it snapshots once a day (configurable) and then "sends" the snapshot to another drive/server if you request it to do so. Looks like they just made snapshots accesible to desktop users. Pretty impressive how they did the GUI work too. ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Schrock <eric.schrock at sun.com> Date: Monday, August 7, 2006 8:55 am Subject: Re: [zfs-discuss] Apple Time Machine To: Tao Chen <nameistao at gmail.com> Cc: ZFS Discussions <zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org>> There are some more details here: > > http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/timemachine.html > > In particular, the backups are done to a separate drive. This means > that they can''t be using traditional COW techniques (not that such a > thing is possible with HSFS), so it''s unclear what kind of performance > impact this would have on your machine. I''m sure we''ll hear some > details as people actually get their hands on the software. > > - Eric > > -- > Eric Schrock, Solaris Kernel Development > http://blogs.sun.com/eschrock_______________________________________________ > zfs-discuss mailing list > zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org > http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss >
Well, its hard to tell from the description whether the "Time Machine browser" is the only way you can get at previous versions of files before you restore them. If so, this is somewhat different than snapshots. --joe David J. Orman wrote:> Reading that site, it sounds EXACTLY like snapshots. It doesn''t sound to require a second disk, it just gives you the option of backing up to one. Sounds like it snapshots once a day (configurable) and then "sends" the snapshot to another drive/server if you request it to do so. Looks like they just made snapshots accesible to desktop users. Pretty impressive how they did the GUI work too. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Eric Schrock <eric.schrock at sun.com> > Date: Monday, August 7, 2006 8:55 am > Subject: Re: [zfs-discuss] Apple Time Machine > To: Tao Chen <nameistao at gmail.com> > Cc: ZFS Discussions <zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org> > > >> There are some more details here: >> >> http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/timemachine.html >> >> In particular, the backups are done to a separate drive. This means >> that they can''t be using traditional COW techniques (not that such a >> thing is possible with HSFS), so it''s unclear what kind of performance >> impact this would have on your machine. I''m sure we''ll hear some >> details as people actually get their hands on the software. >> >> - Eric >> >> -- >> Eric Schrock, Solaris Kernel Development >> http://blogs.sun.com/eschrock_______________________________________________ >> zfs-discuss mailing list >> zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org >> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss >> >> > _______________________________________________ > zfs-discuss mailing list > zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org > http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss >
Yeah, we need more information. However, time machine browser might very well just be a fancy browser for a .zfs type setup, much like Solaris has. Just with GUI splash all over it. I''m just curious about the underlying implementation. I wonder if they did all this sticking with HFS+ or if they actually migrated to ZFS. The next weeks should be interesting as people get ahold of the dev copies. David ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Mocker <mock+osol at fakebelieve.org> Date: Monday, August 7, 2006 9:04 am Subject: Re: [zfs-discuss] Apple Time Machine To: "David J. Orman" <ormandj at corenode.com> Cc: Eric Schrock <eric.schrock at sun.com>, ZFS Discussions <zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org>> Well, its hard to tell from the description whether the "Time > Machine > browser" is the only way you can get at previous versions of files > before you restore them. If so, this is somewhat different than > snapshots. > --joe > > David J. Orman wrote: > > Reading that site, it sounds EXACTLY like snapshots. It doesn''t > sound to require a second disk, it just gives you the option of > backing up to one. Sounds like it snapshots once a day > (configurable) and then "sends" the snapshot to another > drive/server if you request it to do so. Looks like they just made > snapshots accesible to desktop users. Pretty impressive how they > did the GUI work too. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Eric Schrock <eric.schrock at sun.com> > > Date: Monday, August 7, 2006 8:55 am > > Subject: Re: [zfs-discuss] Apple Time Machine > > To: Tao Chen <nameistao at gmail.com> > > Cc: ZFS Discussions <zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org> > > > > > >> There are some more details here: > >> > >> http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/timemachine.html > >> > >> In particular, the backups are done to a separate drive. This > means>> that they can''t be using traditional COW techniques (not > that such a > >> thing is possible with HSFS), so it''s unclear what kind of > performance>> impact this would have on your machine. I''m sure > we''ll hear some > >> details as people actually get their hands on the software. > >> > >> - Eric > >> > >> -- > >> Eric Schrock, Solaris Kernel Development > >> > http://blogs.sun.com/eschrock_______________________________________________>> zfs-discuss mailing list > >> zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org > >> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > zfs-discuss mailing list > > zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org > > http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss > > > >
Yeah, I just noticed this line: "Backup Time: Time Machine will back up every night at midnight, unless you select a different time from this menu." So this is just standard backups, with a (very) slick GUI layered on top. From the impression of the text-only rumor feed, it sounded more impressive, from a filesystem implementation perspective. Still, the GUI integration is pretty nice, and implies that they''re backups are in some easily accessed form. Otherwise, extracting hundreds of files from a compressed stream would induce too much delay for the interactive stuff they describe. - Eric On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 08:58:15AM -1000, David J. Orman wrote:> Reading that site, it sounds EXACTLY like snapshots. It doesn''t sound > to require a second disk, it just gives you the option of backing up > to one. Sounds like it snapshots once a day (configurable) and then > "sends" the snapshot to another drive/server if you request it to do > so. Looks like they just made snapshots accesible to desktop users. > Pretty impressive how they did the GUI work too. >-- Eric Schrock, Solaris Kernel Development http://blogs.sun.com/eschrock
On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 12:08:17PM -0700, Eric Schrock wrote:> Yeah, I just noticed this line: > > "Backup Time: Time Machine will back up every night at midnight, unless > you select a different time from this menu." > > So this is just standard backups, with a (very) slick GUI layered on > top. From the impression of the text-only rumor feed, it sounded more > impressive, from a filesystem implementation perspective. Still, the > GUI integration is pretty nice, and implies that they''re backups are in > some easily accessed form. Otherwise, extracting hundreds of files from > a compressed stream would induce too much delay for the interactive > stuff they describe.You can achieve similar functionality (though not really integrated into all core applications) with Windows XP/2003 by utilizing Samba, ZFS, and Microsoft''s Shadow Copy Client. The Shadow Copy Client provides a straightforward GUI for Windows Explorer that lets you browse, open, and restore previous versions of files while ZFS provides an excellent source of snapshots for the Shadow Copy Client to look to for the previous versions. A quick Google search turned up the following URL which has some screenshots to illustrate what the Shadow Copy Client looks like. The default shadow copy VFS module for Samba doesn''t work very well with ZFS but after some modifications it provides very good integration of ZFS with Windows Explorer. If anyone is interested I can post the Samba patch to the list. Ed Plese
On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 02:36:27PM -0500, Ed Plese wrote:> A quick Google search turned up the following URL which has some > screenshots to illustrate what the Shadow Copy Client looks like.Oops.. forgot the URL: http://www.petri.co.il/how_to_use_the_shadow_copy_client.htm Ed Plese
Eric Schrock wrote:> So this is just standard backups, with a (very) slick GUI layered on > top.http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/timf?entry=zfs_on_your_desktop vs. http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/timemachine.html Hey!! Their idea looks *awfully* familiar :-/ (Steve, does this mean you''ll get your people to port iTunes to OpenSolaris for us[1] ?) cheers, tim [1] http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/timf?entry=zfs_on_osx -- Tim Foster, Sun Microsystems Inc, Operating Platforms Group Engineering Operations http://blogs.sun.com/timf
On Aug 7, 2006, at 15:45, Tim Foster wrote:> (Steve, does this mean you''ll get your people to port iTunes to > OpenSolaris for us[1] ?)Well, they''ve ported Dtrace:> Truly track read/write actions, UI events, and CPU load at the same > time, so you can more easily determine relationships between them. > Many such Xray instruments leverage the open source DTrace, now > built into Mac OS X Leopard. Xray. Because it?s 2006.http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/xcode.html
David Magda wrote:> Well, they''ve ported Dtrace: >> "..now built into Mac OS X Leopard. Xray. Because it?s 2006." Uh right and they''re actually shipping it in 2007. Apple marketing. Anyone want to start printing t-shirts: "DTrace & Time Machine in OpenSolaris. Because we had it in 2005." (actually did they give OpenSolaris a name check at all when they mentioned DTrace ?)> http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/xcode.htmlHrm. I note with interest the bit about "project snapshots": - Record the state of your project anytime, and restore it instantly. Experiment with new features without spending time or brain cells committing them to a source control system. Like saving a game in Civilization 4, Xcode 3.0 lets you go back in time without repercussions. - That''s sounding more and more like ZFS to me, and as others have said, the devil''s in the details (I''m paraphrasing), but I''m only speculating here - don''t have anything concrete. cheers, tim -- Tim Foster, Sun Microsystems Inc, Operating Platforms Group Engineering Operations http://blogs.sun.com/timf
> David Magda wrote: > > Well, they''ve ported Dtrace: > > > > "..now built into Mac OS X Leopard. Xray. Because it?s 2006." > > Uh right and they''re actually shipping it in 2007. Apple marketing. > Anyone want to start printing t-shirts: > > "DTrace & Time Machine in OpenSolaris. Because we had it in 2005." >Is there a GUI frontend grandma can use for ZFS snapshot management/file rollbacks? Is there an IDE which integrates Dtrace support? I realize this isn''t what OSOL is targetting (servers, from all the talk I see, is the main priority for OSOL devs), but it''s what will get the most visibility. Joe Blow isn''t going to have a clue what OpenSolaris is, probably not even Solaris. They''ll know a mac when they see one though. :) Perhaps the OSOL project could *learn* from "Apple Marketing", because to be quite frank, they are doing VERY well. :) Emulating their wise choices would be a good thing for OSOL (no need to falsify dates of course... although arguably since the dev previews going out have dtrace/time machine in them... 2006 is correct. OSOL is very much a "dev preview" type of OS. Not as unstable as 10.5.preview undoubtably, but still very much alike.)> (actually did they give OpenSolaris a name check at all when they > mentioned DTrace ?)Nope, not that I can see. Apple''s pretty notorious for that kind of "oversight". I used to work for them, I know first hand how hat-tipping doesn''t occur very often.> > http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/xcode.html > > Hrm. I note with interest the bit about "project snapshots": > > - > Record the state of your project anytime, and restore it instantly. > Experiment with new features without spending time or brain cells > committing them to a source control system. Like saving a game in > Civilization 4, Xcode 3.0 lets you go back in time without > repercussions.- > > That''s sounding more and more like ZFS to me, and as others have > said, > the devil''s in the details (I''m paraphrasing), but I''m only > speculating > here - don''t have anything concrete. >I''m just curious if they added ZFS-like functionality to HFS+ or actually USE ZFS. I''d be MUCH happier if they USE ZFS, because I''ve had a LOT of volume corruption with HFS+. Gumakalakafufu, David
On 8/7/06, Tim Foster <Tim.Foster at sun.com> wrote:> > David Magda wrote: > > Well, they''ve ported Dtrace: > > > > "..now built into Mac OS X Leopard. Xray. Because it''s 2006." > > Uh right and they''re actually shipping it in 2007. Apple marketing. > Anyone want to start printing t-shirts: > > "DTrace & Time Machine in OpenSolaris. Because we had it in 2005." > >Looks like Time Machine is implemented using HFS+: "To make Time Machine work, Mac users will need to use a separate HFS+ compatible non-bootable hard drive, Croll said." http://news.com.com/New+Apple+feature+sends+users+back+in+time/2100-1046_3-6103007.html?tag=nefd.top As Eric said earlier, it''s a standard backup, incremental after the first one, a versioning system of some sort. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/zfs-discuss/attachments/20060807/ecb12e81/attachment.html>
On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 01:19:14PM -1000, David J. Orman wrote:> > > (actually did they give OpenSolaris a name check at all when they > > mentioned DTrace ?) > > Nope, not that I can see. Apple''s pretty notorious for that kind of > "oversight". I used to work for them, I know first hand how > hat-tipping doesn''t occur very often. >Before this progresses much further, it''s worth noting that all of team DTrace is at WWDC, has met with Apple engineers previously, and will be involved in one or more presentations today. So while the marketing department may not include OpenSolaris in the high level overview, Apple is not ignoring the roots of DTrace, and will not be hiding this fact from their developers (not that they could). - Eric -- Eric Schrock, Solaris Kernel Development http://blogs.sun.com/eschrock
On 8/7/06, Eric Schrock <eric.schrock at sun.com> wrote:> > On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 01:19:14PM -1000, David J. Orman wrote: > > > > > (actually did they give OpenSolaris a name check at all when they > > > mentioned DTrace ?) > > > > Nope, not that I can see. Apple''s pretty notorious for that kind of > > "oversight". I used to work for them, I know first hand how > > hat-tipping doesn''t occur very often. > > > > Before this progresses much further, it''s worth noting that all of team > DTrace is at WWDC, has met with Apple engineers previously, and will be > involved in one or more presentations today. So while the marketing > department may not include OpenSolaris in the high level overview, Apple > is not ignoring the roots of DTrace, and will not be hiding this fact > from their developers (not that they could). > > - Eric > >Cool. Let''s see how it works out in the long run, will we (the OpenSolaris community) get anything back from Apple and its community, how well does CDDL work in the real world, etc. (we all know what happened to Darwin/BSD). In terms of openness, Sun and Apple are going opposite directions IMHO, interesting situation :) Tao -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/zfs-discuss/attachments/20060807/ec2c2e01/attachment.html>
On Aug 7, 2006, at 7:17 PM, Tao Chen wrote:> In terms of openness, Sun and Apple are going opposite directions > IMHO, interesting situation :) > > TaoApple just released the Darwin Kernel code "xnu-792-10.96" the equivalent of 10.4.7 for intel machines. -- Robert.
> Apple just released the Darwin Kernel code "xnu-792-10.96" > the equivalent of 10.4.7 for intel machines. > > -- Robert.Really? How odd. Seems to be counter-intuitive with this news: http://opendarwin.org/en/news/shutdown.html
> Really? How odd. Seems to be counter-intuitive with this news:Moreso, http://www.opendarwin.org/~bbraun/oshistory.html http://www.opendarwin.org/~bbraun/webkit.html http://www.opendarwin.org/~bbraun/osfail.html Apple is not interested in open source, as they''ve been merely using it for a PR stunt. Surprised OpenDarwin has died recently? You shouldn''t be - OpenDarwin died years ago (ask any actual, OpenDarwin developer).
On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 04:57:44PM -0700, Eric Schrock wrote:> On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 01:19:14PM -1000, David J. Orman wrote: > > > > > (actually did they give OpenSolaris a name check at all when they > > > mentioned DTrace ?) > > > > Nope, not that I can see. Apple''s pretty notorious for that kind of > > "oversight". I used to work for them, I know first hand how > > hat-tipping doesn''t occur very often. > > > > Before this progresses much further, it''s worth noting that all of team > DTrace is at WWDC, has met with Apple engineers previously, and will be > involved in one or more presentations today. So while the marketing > department may not include OpenSolaris in the high level overview, Apple > is not ignoring the roots of DTrace, and will not be hiding this fact > from their developers (not that they could).We''ve had a great relationship with Apple at the engineering level -- and indeed, Team DTrace just got back from dinner with the Apple engineers involved with the port. More details here: http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/bmc?entry=dtrace_on_mac_os_x As for the OpenSolaris name check: no, Apple didn''t mention DTrace''s roots and yes, I wished they had -- but DTrace was mentioned practically as an aside anyway (so much so that a developer sitting about two rows ahead of turned to the guy next to him and asked "did they just say they ported DTrace?!"), and I think the team involved with DTrace at Apple would have also liked to see a more prominent and complete description of their work and its origins. So in short (and brace yourself, because I know it will be a shock): mentions by executives in keynotes don''t always accurately represent a technology. DynFS, anyone? ;) - Bryan -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bryan Cantrill, Solaris Kernel Development. http://blogs.sun.com/bmc
Needless to say, this was a pretty interesting piece of the keynote from a technical point of view that had quite a few of us scratching our heads. After talking to some Apple engineers, it seems like what they''re doing is more or less this: When a file is modified, the kernel fires off an event which a user-land daemon listens for. Every so often, the user-land daemon does something like a snapshot of the affected portions of the filesystem with hard links (including hard links to directories -- I''m not making this up). That might be a bit off, but it''s the impression I was left with. Anyhow, very slick UI, sort of dubious back end, interesting possibility for integration with ZFS. Adam On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 12:08:17PM -0700, Eric Schrock wrote:> Yeah, I just noticed this line: > > "Backup Time: Time Machine will back up every night at midnight, unless > you select a different time from this menu." > > So this is just standard backups, with a (very) slick GUI layered on > top. From the impression of the text-only rumor feed, it sounded more > impressive, from a filesystem implementation perspective. Still, the > GUI integration is pretty nice, and implies that they''re backups are in > some easily accessed form. Otherwise, extracting hundreds of files from > a compressed stream would induce too much delay for the interactive > stuff they describe. > > - Eric > > On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 08:58:15AM -1000, David J. Orman wrote: > > Reading that site, it sounds EXACTLY like snapshots. It doesn''t sound > > to require a second disk, it just gives you the option of backing up > > to one. Sounds like it snapshots once a day (configurable) and then > > "sends" the snapshot to another drive/server if you request it to do > > so. Looks like they just made snapshots accesible to desktop users. > > Pretty impressive how they did the GUI work too. > > > > -- > Eric Schrock, Solaris Kernel Development http://blogs.sun.com/eschrock > _______________________________________________ > zfs-discuss mailing list > zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org > http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss-- Adam Leventhal, Solaris Kernel Development http://blogs.sun.com/ahl
On 8/7/06, Robert Gordon <Robert.Gordon at sun.com> wrote:> > > On Aug 7, 2006, at 7:17 PM, Tao Chen wrote: > > > In terms of openness, Sun and Apple are going opposite directions > > IMHO, interesting situation :) > > > > Tao > > Apple just released the Darwin Kernel code "xnu-792-10.96" > the equivalent of 10.4.7 for intel machines. > > -- Robert. >You''re right, I just saw the announcement, http://lists.apple.com/archives/Darwin-dev/2006/Aug/msg00067.html A good move. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/zfs-discuss/attachments/20060808/3fcd6bcb/attachment.html>
On 8/7/06, Bryan Cantrill <bmc at eng.sun.com> wrote:> > > We''ve had a great relationship with Apple at the engineering level -- and > indeed, Team DTrace just got back from dinner with the Apple engineers > involved with the port. More details here: > > http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/bmc?entry=dtrace_on_mac_os_x > >Your blog should be "digged/slashdotted/osnews''ed/whatever''ed" :) On a different note (sorry this is already off-topic for zfs-discuss), your previous blog happens to be "DTrace on FreeBSD, update" - are these efforts shared at all between OSX and FreeBSD? Tao -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/zfs-discuss/attachments/20060808/f548bd5d/attachment.html>
Adam Leventhal wrote:> Needless to say, this was a pretty interesting piece of the keynote from a > technical point of view that had quite a few of us scratching our heads. > After talking to some Apple engineers, it seems like what they''re doing is > more or less this: > > When a file is modified, the kernel fires off an event which a user-land > daemon listens for. Every so often, the user-land daemon does something > like a snapshot of the affected portions of the filesystem with hard links > (including hard links to directories -- I''m not making this up). That > might be a bit off, but it''s the impression I was left with.Which sounds very similar to how NTFS does single instance storage and some other things. The interesting thing here is that this means HFS+ and NTFS both have a file event monitoring framework that is exposed up into userland. This is something that would be VERY useful for OpenSolaris, particularly if we could do it at the VFS layer.> Anyhow, very slick UI, sort of dubious back end, interesting possibility > for integration with ZFS.:-) Which is the opposite of what "we" tend to do, slick backend and no GUI and an integration challenge on the CLI :-) -- Darren J Moffat
On Aug 8, 2006, at 12:34 AM, Darren J Moffat wrote:> Adam Leventhal wrote: >> Needless to say, this was a pretty interesting piece of the >> keynote from a >> technical point of view that had quite a few of us scratching our >> heads. >> After talking to some Apple engineers, it seems like what they''re >> doing is >> more or less this: >> When a file is modified, the kernel fires off an event which a >> user-land >> daemon listens for. Every so often, the user-land daemon does >> something >> like a snapshot of the affected portions of the filesystem with >> hard links >> (including hard links to directories -- I''m not making this up). That >> might be a bit off, but it''s the impression I was left with. > > Which sounds very similar to how NTFS does single instance storage > and some other things. > > The interesting thing here is that this means HFS+ and NTFS both > have a file event monitoring framework that is exposed up into > userland. This is something that would be VERY useful for > OpenSolaris, particularly if we could do it at the VFS layer. > >> Anyhow, very slick UI, sort of dubious back end, interesting >> possibility >> for integration with ZFS. > > :-) Which is the opposite of what "we" tend to do, slick backend > and no > GUI and an integration challenge on the CLI :-)Both FreeBSD[1] and Apple[2] (of course) use the kqueue for file event notifications. openSolaris''s FEM [3] "starter-kit" would be an interesting place to visit and build upon.. -- Robert. [1]: http://people.freebsd.org/~jlemon/papers/kqueue.pdf [2]: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ ManPages/man2/kqueue.2.html [3]: http://cvs.opensolaris.org/source/xref/on/usr/src/uts/common/sys/ fem.h
Bryan Cantrill wrote:> So in short (and brace yourself, because I > know it will be a shock): mentions by executives in keynotes don''t always > accurately represent a technology. DynFS, anyone? ;)I''m shocked and stunned, and not a little amazed! I''ll bet the OpenSolaris PPC guys are thrilled at the prospect DTrace on their platform. cheers, tim -- Tim Foster, Sun Microsystems Inc, Operating Platforms Group Engineering Operations http://blogs.sun.com/timf
On August 8, 2006 3:04:09 PM +0930 Darren J Moffat <Darren.Moffat at Sun.COM> wrote:> Adam Leventhal wrote: >> When a file is modified, the kernel fires off an event which a user-land >> daemon listens for. Every so often, the user-land daemon does something >> like a snapshot of the affected portions of the filesystem with hard links >> (including hard links to directories -- I''m not making this up). That >> might be a bit off, but it''s the impression I was left with. > > Which sounds very similar to how NTFS does single instance storage and some other things.And how Google Desktop and the Mac OS X Spotlight features index data. -frank
On 8/7/06, Adam Leventhal <ahl at eng.sun.com> wrote:> Needless to say, this was a pretty interesting piece of the keynote from a > technical point of view that had quite a few of us scratching our heads. > After talking to some Apple engineers, it seems like what they''re doing is > more or less this: > > When a file is modified, the kernel fires off an event which a user-land > daemon listens for. Every so often, the user-land daemon does something > like a snapshot of the affected portions of the filesystem with hard links > (including hard links to directories -- I''m not making this up). That > might be a bit off, but it''s the impression I was left with. > > Anyhow, very slick UI, sort of dubious back end, interesting possibility > for integration with ZFS.You were spot on with your description and conclusion. More details here: http://arstechnica.com/staff/fatbits.ars/2006/8/15/4995 Steve