zfs discuss - Nov 2005 - How install ZFS alongside with UFS ?

Hi all,

I wan''t to install OpenSolaris build 27 on my computer (I have
uninstalled linux just for that), but I have seen that I cannot boot from a ZFS
drive now, so I have got this question:

How do I set the geometry of my disk ?

I have got only one 40 GB drive, and I don''t know how set up the ZFS on
this drive.
Does I make a 40 GB UFS partition ? or only a 5 GB UFS partition (for root
filesystem) or a 120 MB partiton for "/boot" ?

And after, how can I make ZFS partition ?

Thanks for your answers.

Damien

(Sorry if my english isn''t perfect, I am french)
This message posted from opensolaris.org

>I wan''t to install OpenSolaris build 27 on my computer (I have
uninstalled linux just for that), b
ut I have seen that I cannot boot from a ZFS drive now, so I have got this
question:
>
>How do I set the geometry of my disk ?
	- create a single SOLARIS FDISK partition spanning the entire disk
	- partition the FDISK partition into Solaris partitions:
		- 10G Solaris "/"
		- some swap (1G?)
		- remainder can be allocated as UFS or left un allocated.
>I have got only one 40 GB drive, and I don''t know how set up the
ZFS on this drive.
>Does I make a 40 GB UFS partition ? or only a 5 GB UFS partition (for root
filesystem) or a 120 MB
 partiton for "/boot" ?
>
>And after, how can I make ZFS partition ?
After install and you''ve created a partition with the rest you can do
something like:

	zpool create pool c0d0s3

(if s3 is the additional slice created with the rest of space)

Casper

Casper.Dik at Sun.COM wrote:
> After install and you''ve created a partition with the rest you can
do
> something like:
>
> 	zpool create pool c0d0s3
>
> (if s3 is the additional slice created with the rest of space)
And how to mount a USB or 1394 connected removable disk when it seems
that zfs does not fit well into the standard UNIX mount interface?

J?rg

-- 
 EMail:joerg at schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) J?rg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       js at cs.tu-berlin.de		(uni)  
       schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de	(work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

>Casper.Dik at Sun.COM wrote:
>
>> After install and you''ve created a partition with the rest you
can do
>> something like:
>>
>> 	zpool create pool c0d0s3
>>
>> (if s3 is the additional slice created with the rest of space)
>
>And how to mount a USB or 1394 connected removable disk when it seems
>that zfs does not fit well into the standard UNIX mount interface?

zpool import/zpool export should be used for that.

That''s probably just a matter of fixing vold or its successor.

Casper

Casper.Dik at Sun.COM wrote:
> >> 	zpool create pool c0d0s3
> >>
> >> (if s3 is the additional slice created with the rest of space)
> >
> >And how to mount a USB or 1394 connected removable disk when it seems
> >that zfs does not fit well into the standard UNIX mount interface?
>
>
> zpool import/zpool export should be used for that.
Thank you for the hint, but....

Will this work when / is mounted read only and when /dev/ is empty?

> That''s probably just a matter of fixing vold or its successor.
vold does not run when / is still mounted read only
J?rg

-- 
 EMail:joerg at schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) J?rg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       js at cs.tu-berlin.de		(uni)  
       schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de	(work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

Joerg Schilling <schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de> wrote:

> Will this work when / is mounted read only and when /dev/ is empty?
trying to answer a part of my question for clarification:

You cannot mount a zfs based /usr if the needed commands a not available
on the root filesystem.

With hsfs, this was easy to fix for me, I did just write a 10 line
hsfs-aware specialized mount program that searches for the SchilliX
install CD and mounts it. How to create the first step of a real ZFS integration
by building a SchilliX CD that boots a small ramdisk and later mounts
a ZFS based /usr?

J?rg

-- 
 EMail:joerg at schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) J?rg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       js at cs.tu-berlin.de		(uni)  
       schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de	(work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

>vold does not run when / is still mounted read only
vold is not the "final solution" to mounting removable
media.

There''s a follow-on project which is supposed to improve
all this...

Casper

Casper.Dik at Sun.COM wrote:
>
> >vold does not run when / is still mounted read only
>
> vold is not the "final solution" to mounting removable
> media.
>
> There''s a follow-on project which is supposed to improve
> all this...
>From what I''ve heard about it, I am in fear of the results
of this project...

The way Linux deals with removable media creates extreme problems
with CD/DVD writing. The way it is currently implemented on Solaris
is safe and smoothly working.

Unfortunately, Sun does not make the plans open in order to
allow to discuss them before it is too late....

J?rg

-- 
 EMail:joerg at schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) J?rg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       js at cs.tu-berlin.de		(uni)  
       schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de	(work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

>> There''s a follow-on project which is supposed to improve
>> all this...
>
>From what I''ve heard about it, I am in fear of the results
>of this project...
Well, then ask them to be more open about this and get them
to move the project over to OpenSolaris.
(Or I can ask this)

What have you heard and why do you fear it?
>The way Linux deals with removable media creates extreme problems
>with CD/DVD writing. The way it is currently implemented on Solaris
>is safe and smoothly working.
>Unfortunately, Sun does not make the plans open in order to
>allow to discuss them before it is too late....
OpenSolaris is in the process of fixing this; however, only
few projects have yet set this step and we need to encourage more.

Even internally the visibility of the project isn''t all that
great.

Casper

Thanks casper, but I have got a last question, How I make the slice with the
rest of the space ?

I have got this:
c0d0s0 -> Ufs partition
c0d0s1 -> Swap
c0d0s2 -> Ufs loopback
c0d0s3 -> no slice

Thanks.

Damien
This message posted from opensolaris.org

Casper.Dik at Sun.COM wrote:
> What have you heard and why do you fear it?
I''ve heard that it will be similar to what is done in Gnome on Linux.

I fear that the new system will be part of the GUI which would be the
wrong place. The removable media namagement system should be independent
from the GUI and there should be a sufficient part of the removable media 
namagement inside the kernel.

In Solaris, the current system relies on the fact that the sd driver may be 
told to send a TEST UNIT READY command to a drive every 3 seconds.
The result of this call is used to control a GUI independent media management.
This is compatible wit CD/DVD writing. If other commands are used or if the
frequency is higher than 1/3 Hz, there is a big chance to prevent CD/DVD
writing.

The current system provides a separate system of device node entries for
managed devices. This allows to operate without a need to call open
with the O_EXCL flag. 

> >Unfortunately, Sun does not make the plans open in order to
> >allow to discuss them before it is too late....
>
> OpenSolaris is in the process of fixing this; however, only
> few projects have yet set this step and we need to encourage more.
In order to avoid the impression that OpenSolaris is not open to
non-Sun employeees, it would be important that important architectural
changes are discussed with the community before they happen.

J?rg

-- 
 EMail:joerg at schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) J?rg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       js at cs.tu-berlin.de		(uni)  
       schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de	(work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

>Casper.Dik at Sun.COM wrote:
>
>> What have you heard and why do you fear it?
>
>I''ve heard that it will be similar to what is done in Gnome on
Linux.
Part of what is implemented will be, I think, to allow newer versions
of GNOME to work with it.
>I fear that the new system will be part of the GUI which would be the
>wrong place. The removable media namagement system should be independent
>from the GUI and there should be a sufficient part of the removable media 
>namagement inside the kernel.
As far as I can tell, it is.  My understanding is that it is kernel
based and not GUI driven.
>In Solaris, the current system relies on the fact that the sd driver may be 
>told to send a TEST UNIT READY command to a drive every 3 seconds.
>The result of this call is used to control a GUI independent media
management.
>This is compatible wit CD/DVD writing. If other commands are used or if the
>frequency is higher than 1/3 Hz, there is a big chance to prevent CD/DVD
>writing.
I see.
>The current system provides a separate system of device node entries for
>managed devices. This allows to operate without a need to call open
>with the O_EXCL flag. 
The separate devices are gone as far as I can tell, but the management
should be similar as before.
>In order to avoid the impression that OpenSolaris is not open to
>non-Sun employeees, it would be important that important architectural
>changes are discussed with the community before they happen.
You can''t turn a supertanker on a dime, but we''re trying to
anyway...

Casper

On Sat, Nov 26, 2005 at 01:12:32PM +0100, Joerg Schilling
wrote:
> 
> You cannot mount a zfs based /usr if the needed commands a not available
> on the root filesystem.
> 
This should be fixed in build 29.  You will need to set the /usr dataset
to have a legacy mountpoint (so that it can be mounted early as part of
/etc/vfstab) rather than an automatically managed mountpoint.

- Eric

--
Eric Schrock, Solaris Kernel Development       http://blogs.sun.com/eschrock

On Sat, Nov 26, 2005 at 12:56:40PM +0100, Casper.Dik at sun.com
wrote:
> 
> >And how to mount a USB or 1394 connected removable disk when it seems
> >that zfs does not fit well into the standard UNIX mount interface?
> 
> zpool import/zpool export should be used for that.
> 
> That''s probably just a matter of fixing vold or its successor.
In particular, look at the alternate root functionality (import -R),
which allows you to import a pool within a subset of the filesystem.  So
you can, for example, have a pool with a single dataset and a mountpoint
of ''/'', so that you can do ''zpool import -R /mnt
foo'' and have the
dataset mounted directly at ''/''.  This is described in the
Administration Guide, with direct references to removable media.

As Casper points out, we expect this to be integrated with the next
generation volume management at some point in the future.

- Eric

--
Eric Schrock, Solaris Kernel Development       http://blogs.sun.com/eschrock

On Sat, Nov 26, 2005 at 09:24:45AM -0800, Eric Schrock
wrote:
>
> So you can, for example, have a pool with a single dataset and a mountpoint
> of ''/'', so that you can do ''zpool import -R /mnt
foo'' and have the
> dataset mounted directly at ''/''.
Err, that should read:

... and have the dataset mounted directly at ''/mnt''.

Since the ''/'' mountpoint gets translated to
''/mnt'' via the alternate
root of the pool.

- Eric

--
Eric Schrock, Solaris Kernel Development       http://blogs.sun.com/eschrock

Joerg Schilling wrote:
> The way Linux deals with removable media creates extreme problems
> with CD/DVD writing. The way it is currently implemented on Solaris
> is safe and smoothly working.
Funny you should say that, when a couple of minutes ago I lost a CD 
because gnome-volcheck accessed a blank CD and interfered with cdrw 
writing to it.

(Running SX 10/05 on Thinkpad R50 and having surprisingly few problems 
with it.)

Josip Gracin <gracin at tel.fer.hr> wrote:
> Joerg Schilling wrote:
> > The way Linux deals with removable media creates extreme problems
> > with CD/DVD writing. The way it is currently implemented on Solaris
> > is safe and smoothly working.
>
> Funny you should say that, when a couple of minutes ago I lost a CD 
> because gnome-volcheck accessed a blank CD and interfered with cdrw 
> writing to it.
Do not use cdrw, it is insecure here because it does not include the gracetime
feature of cdrecord.

Cdrecord has a minimum grace time of 3 seconds just because of the 3 second
check frquency of the sd driver. When there is a medium change, vold is waked
up and does additional things that interrupt CD/DVD writing. Later, vold is 
quiet....and cdrecord starts again.

Also note that cdrw only works for a limited number drives.



J?rg

-- 
 EMail:joerg at schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) J?rg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       js at cs.tu-berlin.de		(uni)  
       schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de	(work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily