Xen users - Nov 2005 - OS kernels ports, VT, Pacifica & performance

Hi all,

First, I''m not sure this post should have been sent to xen-devel or
here. Please, any list owner : forward to xen-devel if you read this and feel it
should have gone there.

I wonder what will be the advantage, in terms of performance, of having
optimized kernels for XenU when VT/Pacifica will be there.

AFAIK, using "standard" kernels means emulating peripherals (network
card and so on) on dom0. Xen "optimized" or "ported" kernels
should have a performance advantage. But has this perf increase already been
evaluated ?

Question behind this : does it worth the work to port some other OSes to Xen
architecture ?

Regards,

--
Sylvain COUTANT

ADVISEO
http://www.adviseo.fr/
http://www.open-sp.fr/



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Sylvain Coutant wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>First, I''m not sure this post should have been sent to xen-devel or
here. Please, any list owner : forward to xen-devel if you read this and feel it
should have gone there.
>
>I wonder what will be the advantage, in terms of performance, of having
optimized kernels for XenU when VT/Pacifica will be there.
>  
>
It''s pretty much a rule that anytime you optimize something to run in a
VMM, it''s going to improve performance.  The real question is whether 
that performance is noticable.

My initial feeling is that there are going to be some noticable 
performance optimizations one can make for running under VT/Pacifica 
without actually requiring Xen-only modifications (changing page table 
writes for instance to be more like writable page tables).
>AFAIK, using "standard" kernels means emulating peripherals
(network card and so on) on dom0. Xen "optimized" or
"ported" kernels should have a performance advantage. But has this
perf increase already been evaluated ?
>  
>
There''s quite a bit of ongoing research about whether it''s
possible to
make native-performance emulated drivers.  The theory is that if you 
choose the right hardware to emulate, you could potentially have a 
emulation model that looks a lot like what a paravirtual driver would 
look like anyway.

Regards,

Anthony Liguori
>Question behind this : does it worth the work to port some other OSes to Xen
architecture ?
>
>Regards,
>
>--
>Sylvain COUTANT
>
>ADVISEO
>http://www.adviseo.fr/
>http://www.open-sp.fr/
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Xen-users mailing list
>Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
>http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
>
>  
>

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Sylvain Coutant wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> First, I''m not sure this post should have been sent to xen-devel
or here. Please, any list owner : forward to xen-devel if you read this and feel
it should have gone there.
> 
> I wonder what will be the advantage, in terms of performance, of having
optimized kernels for XenU when VT/Pacifica will be there.
> 
> AFAIK, using "standard" kernels means emulating peripherals
(network card and so on) on dom0. Xen "optimized" or
"ported" kernels should have a performance advantage. But has this
perf increase already been evaluated ?
> 
> Question behind this : does it worth the work to port some other OSes to
Xen architecture ?
Not having access to Pacifica/VT hardware (I''d almost kill for it), 
there are limits to what can be commented.

Think of normal multitasking. Handing over the cpu timeslice from one 
running process to another means saving the running process'' state and 
loading another sleeping process'' state.

With virtualization, the whole OS state and pagetable structure needs to 
be saved and revoked. A bit more timeconsuming..
Having virtualisation hardware support for this will be a real speed-up.
Having hardware support in a cpu with onchip memorycontroller will mean 
even more speed-up.

Without that onchip memorycontroller, quite a lot still needs be done in 
software. Yes, the cpu ''hardware'' virtualization is not just a
mix of
registers and logic, but also firmware; however, still rather faster 
than what the target systems OS + virtualization mechanism can achieve.

With current virtualization techniques, guest/domU systems are always 
emulated, so having cpu hardware virtualization doesn''t really change 
that, AFAICS. It''ll mean the abilility to run unpatched OS''s,
though.

It''s another ballgame further into the future, when the whole platform 
and PCIe gets increasingly virtualized. Maybe sometime around 2008..

-- 
Kind regards,
Mogens Valentin


PCIe virtualisation: Imagine cat herding with a firehose
and firecrackers.  That is notably easier than getting all
the peripheral makers to play along.
   -- fun on theinquirer.net


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I''d like to make a comment here... I do HAVE access to Pacifica
hardware, but I can''t really comment on it''s the performance
in numbers
that can be compared with other numbers possibly available to others
using other hardware [since we haven''t released our hardware]. So my
comments will be on the basis that the two implementations are
relatively equivalent when it comes to the penalties in different
places.... 

Comments inline below:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com 
> [mailto:xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com] On Behalf Of 
> Mogens Valentin
> Sent: 18 November 2005 23:03
> To: Sylvain Coutant
> Cc: xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> Subject: Re: [Xen-users] OS kernels ports, VT, Pacifica & performance
> 
> Sylvain Coutant wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > First, I''m not sure this post should have been sent to 
> xen-devel or here. Please, any list owner : forward to 
> xen-devel if you read this and feel it should have gone there.
> > 
> > I wonder what will be the advantage, in terms of 
> performance, of having optimized kernels for XenU when 
> VT/Pacifica will be there.
> > 
> > AFAIK, using "standard" kernels means emulating peripherals 
> (network card and so on) on dom0. Xen "optimized" or
"ported"
> kernels should have a performance advantage. But has this 
> perf increase already been evaluated ?
I don''t think anyone has published results for this, as both AMD and
Intel have yet to reach public consumption for both hardware and
software. Xen 3.0 is still a moving target, for example, and it would be
unfair to just grab a snapshot today and publish those results, when
someone might figure out next week that you get 5% or 10% or 20% better
performance by doing something differently. [No, I haven''t got a clue
if
these performance improvements are realistic, but it''s likely that
there''s some performance improvements to be had from adjusting some
things in Xen''s hypervisor. This may or may not happen for Xen 3.0].

But there''s certainly an advantage in a para-virtualized kernel,
compared to a hardware "only" virtualized kernel. In both instances,
there''s a penalty compared to the non-virtual setup. Say for instance
the code contains a "mov %eax, %cr3", which is a single instruction.
It''s not a single cycle, but maybe a dozen or so [including
invalidating
the TLB''s]. However, compare this to the Para-virtualized case where
the
move to CR3 becomes a trap into a GP fault handler, that first of all
has to determine what instruction it was, then perform the relevant CR3
operation on behalf of the guest [including Dom0], and return from the
trap. This is certainly in the hundreds of cycles, with a few dozen used
up just in the trap/return-from-trap operations.

In the case of a HW virtualized guest, the move to CR3 will cause an
intercept leading to VMEXIT, which means that the current state of the
guest will be stored, and the correct operation determined [which is
somewhat easier, because we now have an exitcode from the
VMRUN/VMLAUNCH/VMRESUME instruction], and the data to store into CR3
will have to be dug out of somewhere [perhaps including parsing of the
instruction opcode to determine for instance with GP register contains
the value]. This, again, is certainly in the hundreds of cycles, if not
more. 

However, the Paravirtualized system can do clever things when it comes
to certain operations in the sense that if you modify the original
source code in the correct way, common operations can be optimized away
from being trapped into a call into the Xen hypervisor, thus reducing
the time spent in getting into/out of the hypervisor. In the case of HW
virtualized operations, each individual operation needs to be
intercepted. 
> > 
> > Question behind this : does it worth the work to port some 
> other OSes to Xen architecture ?
> 
> Not having access to Pacifica/VT hardware (I''d almost kill 
> for it), there are limits to what can be commented.
> 
> Think of normal multitasking. Handing over the cpu timeslice 
> from one running process to another means saving the running 
> process'' state and loading another sleeping process''
state.
Correct, and in this case, very little difference will be seen in the HW
or Para-virtualized case. Both will have to do roughly the same thing,
and the penalty compared to the non-virtualized situation is
> 
> With virtualization, the whole OS state and pagetable 
> structure needs to be saved and revoked. A bit more timeconsuming..
> Having virtualisation hardware support for this will be a 
> real speed-up.
> Having hardware support in a cpu with onchip memorycontroller 
> will mean even more speed-up.
I''ve seen the claim that onchip memory controller will help
virtualisation, and I do agree that it will, but only in the same sense
that an onchip memory controller helps every other type of memory
intensive operations - it gives the processor a more direct link to the
memory controller, allowing for more direct communications, including
for instance parallelizing certain operations such as L2 cache lookup
with the initial stages of memory reads, so that if the L2 lookup is a
miss, the memory read has already progressed some cycles down the path,
rather than starting the memory read once the L2 lookup was finished.
> 
> Without that onchip memorycontroller, quite a lot still needs 
> be done in software. Yes, the cpu ''hardware''
virtualization
> is not just a mix of registers and logic, but also firmware; 
> however, still rather faster than what the target systems OS 
> + virtualization mechanism can achieve.
This explanation doesn''t make sense. With or without onchip memory
controller, almost identical work has to be done - intercepting
operations that the hypervisor needs to know about, such as Control
Register writes, I/O operations, Interrupts, Exceptions, etc, etc. The
hypervisor then has to do "the right thing" about the intercepted
operation, and return to the guest [or another guest in the case where
the guest is waiting for some event like the end of an IO operation]. 

Without revealing too much about the Pacifica work, I can certainly say
that VERY MUCH of it is almost identical to the code in the Intel VT
code, with the majority of the differences being the fact that Intel has
specific instructions to modify the VMCS, whilst AMD choose to implement
a VMCB that is just a block of memory, accessed through the same type of
memory operations that any other memory is accessed through. There are
other differences, which are all based on the differences in AMD''s and
Intel''s choices when the two companies implemented the HW virtulization
support. But in all essential points, the work done is identical and the
functionality is very similar.

The integrated memory controller helps making the memory reads/writes
transition from the processor to the memory faster, which helps the
guest/host/hypervisor getting the work done faster, but it doesn''t at
all simplify the work needed in the hypervisor. 
> 
> With current virtualization techniques, guest/domU systems 
> are always emulated, so having cpu hardware virtualization 
> doesn''t really change that, AFAICS. It''ll mean the
abilility
> to run unpatched OS''s, though.
Yup, that''s exactly how it works. DomU is using emulated hardware
[aside
from if you manually assign PCI resources through Xen''s mechanisms of
hiding from Dom0 and showing it to a selected DomU]. The real value of
HW virtualization is the ability to run an unmodified OS, whether that
means a shrinkwrapped Linux-kernel (or for example an OLD kernel with no
virtulization patches available) or one of the commercially available
OS''s that do not have open/available source-code to patch. 
> 
> It''s another ballgame further into the future, when the whole 
> platform and PCIe gets increasingly virtualized. Maybe 
> sometime around 2008..
I''m sure further work will happen in the future, and we''d see
some (or
lots) of the hardware adding support to let them run in a virtualized
mode - how about a network card that supports multiple guests to write
to it, and allows it to have different virtual network addresses based
on which guest?

--
Mats
> 
> --
> Kind regards,
> Mogens Valentin
> 
> 
> PCIe virtualisation: Imagine cat herding with a firehose
> and firecrackers.  That is notably easier than getting all
> the peripheral makers to play along.
>    -- fun on theinquirer.net
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-users mailing list
> Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
> 
> 

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