wxruby users - May 2006 - Advanced text editor developed with WxRuby

I just joined this list, have info to share, and some questions.

As background, I happen to be a blind person who uses a screen reader
utility to operate
the computer.  I use the keyboard rather than mouse for input and the
screen reader, called JAWS, provides output in synthetic speech.  This
generally works well for standard or common controls of Windows, which
WxWidgets wraps (since they are native to the Windows OS).  By contrast,
other GUI libraries such as TK and FX do not result in accessible user
interfaces for blind users because our screen readers do not understand
the custom controls.

I have developed a text editor, TextPal, with a rich feature set that is
optimized for screen reader users.
http://www.EmpowermentZone.com/palsetup.exe

It should run on computers that do not have a screen reader running, but
speech output would not occur, such as commands on the Query menu.  The
application is being well received by the blind community, since it offers
many convenient features not available with other text or code editors.  I
am grateful for the developers of WxRuby for making the WxWidgets library
available to the Ruby community.  The sample programs, "Poor Man''s
Documentation," and Wiki have all helped me in developing TextPal.

Questions for now are as follows:

I notice that TextPal sometimes crashes fatally for no apparent reason.
The cause could be errors in my code, but I wonder if the cause could also
be memory management errors in the wrappers of the current stable release
of WxRuby, which the ReadMe file acknowledges as being "early beta
quality."  My
code mainly uses the menu system, multi-line edit control, and event
methods.  Are there general tips that can minimize the chance of a
crash?

I know that WxRuby2 has been in development for a while.  Is there a
binary version for Windows that I could now try?  Is it now more stable
than the previous wrappers?  How does its feature set compare?

TextPal is free and open source in the normal spirit of the Ruby
community.  By default, the installer places the source code at
C:\Program Files\TextPal\TextPal.rbw

Anyone can feel free to look at it for any tips they might get on how I
implemented certain features (all described in the documentation).
Unfortunately, the code is not visually formatted in a pleasing way at
this point.  In particular, the code is not indented since this makes
programming more difficult rather than easier for me.  Perhaps a run
through the Ruby beautifier that someone developed would help sighted
users.

If anyone has tips on how I could improve the code, I would appreciate
it.  In particular, I am trying to better manage the sizes of the main
window and the MDI child windows.  Currently, if one maximizes the main
TextPal window, it does not occupy the whole desktop.  A more bothersome
problem is that the cursor gets stuck when down arrowing at the bottom of
an edit window.  The Ed_Maximize method responds to a Windows sizing
event, so perhaps the solution lies in correcting this code.

Of course, feel free to ask me any questions.  I also welcome feedback and
suggestions.

Regards,
Jamal

Hi Jamal

Thanks for some very interesting info about your work with WxRuby - 
sorry for such a delay in replying. I know others are busy, and I''ve 
just started a new job and half-moved city.

Jamal Mazrui wrote:
> I just joined this list, have info to share, and some questions.
>
> As background, I happen to be a blind person who uses a screen reader
> utility to operate the computer ... This
> generally works well for standard or common controls of Windows, which
> WxWidgets wraps (since they are native to the Windows OS).
That is interesting to know - and an extra selling point for WxRuby. I 
have found that Windows automation apps like AutoIt also seem to get on 
quite well with WxRuby apps (I was considering using it for unit 
testing, but never did anything substantial).

I''d be interested in your opinion of the Wx::Accessible class, which is
new in 2.6.x I think, and aims to provide a cross-platform accessibility 
API.
http://www.wxwindows.org/manuals/2.6.3/wx_wxaccessible.html#wxaccessible
see also:
http://wxwindows.kn.vutbr.cz/access.htm
> I have developed a text editor, TextPal, with a rich feature set that is
> optimized for screen reader users.
> http://www.EmpowermentZone.com/palsetup.exe
>   
I haven''t yet tried it (don''t have admin rights on this PC!)
but am
looking forward to giving it a spin. Is source
available?
> I notice that TextPal sometimes crashes fatally for no apparent reason.
> The cause could be errors in my code
Well, it shouldn''t really crash fatally without any clue
what''s going
wrong - but it does
>   My
> code mainly uses the menu system, multi-line edit control, and event
> methods.  Are there general tips that can minimize the chance of a
> crash?
>   
One thing I have found working with wxruby 0.6.0 is that you can cause 
''pure virtual memory'' errors (Windows) by trying to access
methods of
destroyed widgets. E.g. you keep a reference to a UI widget in a hash, 
destroy the widget, then later try and access the widget through the 
hash. Don''t do that.

Also be careful with ItemData / ClientData. I recommend avoiding these 
as these also cause memory management problems. They can easily be 
simulated using Ruby hashes and arrays.

Some methods also segfault when passed invalid values, which they should 
ignore or raise an Exception. See if you''re calling one of these
methods.
> I know that WxRuby2 has been in development for a while.  Is there a
> binary version for Windows that I could now try? 
Not quite yet - the current development target is to release an alpha 
binary for Windows. It''s tantalisingly close - but unfortunately the 
main developers aren''t able to contribute much volunteer time just at 
the moment.
>  Is it now more stable than the previous wrappers?  
Opinions vary, and of course stability changes because it''s under
active
development. I find it roughly similar to the non-Swig wrapper overall, 
but the bugs are in different places ;)
> How does its feature set compare?
>   
There are a good number of extra features (classes and methods) in 
wxruby2. There are also a few missing methods and classes. The main 
things currently missing are drag''n''drop support and html easy
printing.

A comparison is here.

http://wxruby.rubyforge.org/wiki/wiki.pl?What_Classes_Are_Implemented_In_Wxruby
> TextPal is free and open source in the normal spirit of the Ruby
> community.  By default, the installer places the source code at
> C:\Program Files\TextPal\TextPal.rbw
>   
Not sure if your installer requires the user to install ruby and wxruby 
first. You know you can use rubyscript2exe to distribute a complete, 
standalone .exe that works for an end user completely like a compiled
app?
> If anyone has tips on how I could improve the code, I would appreciate
> it.  In particular, I am trying to better manage the sizes of the main
> window and the MDI child windows.  
In Weft QDA (an app I wrote and work on) I wrote a fair bit of code to 
auto-initialize different MDI window types to a proportion of the MDI 
parent, and also to remember and restore the dimensions of MDI child 
windows. The app is at http://www.pressure.to/qda/ and some relevant 
code is
http://rubyforge.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/weft-qda/lib/weft/wxgui/inspectors.rb?revision=1.19&root=weft-qda&view=markup
> Currently, if one maximizes the main
> TextPal window, it does not occupy the whole desktop.  
What method are you using? Wx::Frame.maximize() works for me IIRC.

> A more bothersome
> problem is that the cursor gets stuck when down arrowing at the bottom of
> an edit window.  The Ed_Maximize method responds to a Windows sizing
> event, so perhaps the solution lies in correcting this code.
>   
I''m not quite sure what you mean - I will have a look when I try your 
app out. You mention that you''re handling SizeEvents - I am curious - 
are you using Sizers for layout? They reduce or remove the need for a 
lot of size event handling.

cheers
alex

Hi Jamal (and everyone else),

First off, I''ll mention that I am writing my message at the top, and
quoting the original thread below. My understanding is that this is
easier to navigate if you''re using a screen reader.

Sorry I didn''t reply earlier. I''m in a crazy-busy phase of my
life right
now, and am neglecting even important tasks. Hopefully things will ease
up within a few weeks.

Compatibility with screen readers is what inspired me to work on wxruby.
I worked for a company that targeted blind users, so I became quite
aware of the drawbacks of non-native widgets. That''s why I continue to
mention that wx is the only mature, cross-platform, native-widget GUI
library out there, and why wxruby is important to the community. Maybe I
also need to add "liberally licensed" since I think it''s
important for
low-level libraries to be usable in low-budget proprietary apps.

For Linux and Windows, I think GTK may also meet that description, or if
not, it probably will soon (because they are improving their Windows
support). But as far as I know, it still won''t support Mac.

As Alex mentioned, wxruby 0.6.0 is somewhat unstable, and is basically
unsupported. wxruby2 is also somewhat unstable, but all our efforts are
going into improving it. The future definitely lies with wxruby2 because
it is far easier to maintain and enhance, thanks to SWIG.

Kevin


On Thu, 2006-06-08 at 19:11 +0100, Alex Fenton wrote:
> Hi Jamal
> 
> Thanks for some very interesting info about your work with WxRuby - 
> sorry for such a delay in replying. I know others are busy, and
I''ve
> just started a new job and half-moved city.
> 
> Jamal Mazrui wrote:
> > I just joined this list, have info to share, and some questions.
> >
> > As background, I happen to be a blind person who uses a screen reader
> > utility to operate the computer ... This
> > generally works well for standard or common controls of Windows, which
> > WxWidgets wraps (since they are native to the Windows OS).
> That is interesting to know - and an extra selling point for WxRuby. I 
> have found that Windows automation apps like AutoIt also seem to get on 
> quite well with WxRuby apps (I was considering using it for unit 
> testing, but never did anything substantial).
> 
> I''d be interested in your opinion of the Wx::Accessible class,
which is
> new in 2.6.x I think, and aims to provide a cross-platform accessibility 
> API.
> http://www.wxwindows.org/manuals/2.6.3/wx_wxaccessible.html#wxaccessible
> see also:
> http://wxwindows.kn.vutbr.cz/access.htm
> > I have developed a text editor, TextPal, with a rich feature set that
is
> > optimized for screen reader users.
> > http://www.EmpowermentZone.com/palsetup.exe
> >   
> I haven''t yet tried it (don''t have admin rights on this
PC!) but am
> looking forward to giving it a spin. Is source available?
> > I notice that TextPal sometimes crashes fatally for no apparent
reason.
> > The cause could be errors in my code
> Well, it shouldn''t really crash fatally without any clue
what''s going
> wrong - but it does
> >   My
> > code mainly uses the menu system, multi-line edit control, and event
> > methods.  Are there general tips that can minimize the chance of a
> > crash?
> >   
> One thing I have found working with wxruby 0.6.0 is that you can cause 
> ''pure virtual memory'' errors (Windows) by trying to
access methods of
> destroyed widgets. E.g. you keep a reference to a UI widget in a hash, 
> destroy the widget, then later try and access the widget through the 
> hash. Don''t do that.
> 
> Also be careful with ItemData / ClientData. I recommend avoiding these 
> as these also cause memory management problems. They can easily be 
> simulated using Ruby hashes and arrays.
> 
> Some methods also segfault when passed invalid values, which they should 
> ignore or raise an Exception. See if you''re calling one of these
methods.
> > I know that WxRuby2 has been in development for a while.  Is there a
> > binary version for Windows that I could now try? 
> Not quite yet - the current development target is to release an alpha 
> binary for Windows. It''s tantalisingly close - but unfortunately
the
> main developers aren''t able to contribute much volunteer time just
at
> the moment.
> >  Is it now more stable than the previous wrappers?  
> Opinions vary, and of course stability changes because it''s under
active
> development. I find it roughly similar to the non-Swig wrapper overall, 
> but the bugs are in different places ;)
> > How does its feature set compare?
> >   
> There are a good number of extra features (classes and methods) in 
> wxruby2. There are also a few missing methods and classes. The main 
> things currently missing are drag''n''drop support and html
easy printing.
> 
> A comparison is here.
> 
>
http://wxruby.rubyforge.org/wiki/wiki.pl?What_Classes_Are_Implemented_In_Wxruby
> > TextPal is free and open source in the normal spirit of the Ruby
> > community.  By default, the installer places the source code at
> > C:\Program Files\TextPal\TextPal.rbw
> >   
> Not sure if your installer requires the user to install ruby and wxruby 
> first. You know you can use rubyscript2exe to distribute a complete, 
> standalone .exe that works for an end user completely like a compiled app?
> > If anyone has tips on how I could improve the code, I would appreciate
> > it.  In particular, I am trying to better manage the sizes of the main
> > window and the MDI child windows.  
> In Weft QDA (an app I wrote and work on) I wrote a fair bit of code to 
> auto-initialize different MDI window types to a proportion of the MDI 
> parent, and also to remember and restore the dimensions of MDI child 
> windows. The app is at http://www.pressure.to/qda/ and some relevant 
> code is
>
http://rubyforge.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/weft-qda/lib/weft/wxgui/inspectors.rb?revision=1.19&root=weft-qda&view=markup
> 
> > Currently, if one maximizes the main
> > TextPal window, it does not occupy the whole desktop.  
> What method are you using? Wx::Frame.maximize() works for me IIRC.
> 
> 
> > A more bothersome
> > problem is that the cursor gets stuck when down arrowing at the bottom
of
> > an edit window.  The Ed_Maximize method responds to a Windows sizing
> > event, so perhaps the solution lies in correcting this code.
> >   
> I''m not quite sure what you mean - I will have a look when I try
your
> app out. You mention that you''re handling SizeEvents - I am
curious -
> are you using Sizers for layout? They reduce or remove the need for a 
> lot of size event handling.
> 
> cheers
> alex
> _______________________________________________
> wxruby-users mailing list
> wxruby-users at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/wxruby-users

Kevin Smith <wxruby at qualitycode.com> writes:
> First off, I''ll mention that I am writing my message at the top,
and
> quoting the original thread below. My understanding is that this is
> easier to navigate if you''re using a screen reader.
my experience is that it''s not. are you aware of any research to back
up this claim?

-- 
Rolf Lindgren                                            http://www.roffe.com/
roffe at extern.uio.no                                     
http://www.dignus.no/

On Sun, 2006-06-11 at 08:51 +0200, Rolf Marvin B?e Lindgren
wrote:
> Kevin Smith <wxruby at qualitycode.com> writes:
> 
> > First off, I''ll mention that I am writing my message at the
top, and
> > quoting the original thread below. My understanding is that this is
> > easier to navigate if you''re using a screen reader.
> 
> my experience is that it''s not. are you aware of any research to
back
> up this claim?
> 
Research? No. I believe I heard mention of it back when I was more
involved with that technology. Logically, it would make sense that
skipping arbitrary sections of quoted material to get to the new text
could be difficult. I certainly wouldn''t want to listen to the entire
message (quoted and new) being read. 

I suppose expensive screen readers have the ability to skip quoted
material (as long as it is quoted in a standard way), when using very
popular email clients like Outlook. It''s also likely that technology
has
improved over the last few years. But it seems likely that some screen
readers on some platforms using some email clients would probably have
fewer fancy features like that.

If you (or anyone else) has actual experience one way or the other, I
would certainly defer to that.

Kevin

I do find it much easier to read top-posted email with a screen reader.
I have been criticized for top posting on the Ruby-Talk mailing list, so
understand that this style is usually not preferred by sighted persons.
When I top post, I try to summarize the points to which I am responding
in order to provide context.  It surprises me, in fact, that this
technique would not often be better for sighted persons as well, since
it seems potentially tedious and confusing to sort through quotes and
interpolations to understand what the writer is addressing.  Since
quotes can be done selectively anyway, why not summarize the points to
which one is responding as fairly and succinctly as possible?  If
someone wants the verbatim quote, he or she can look further down the
message--unless it has already become long, in which case I suggest
truncating the message after the previous one.

At any rate, I do not expect to change minds about netiquette here,
since some evidently approach it with religious fervor!  I do appreciate
the consideration of users with disabilities in the development of
WxRuby and in communication style on this list.

Jamal
On Sun, 11 Jun 2006, Kevin
Smith wrote:
> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 23:10:55 -0400
> From: Kevin Smith <wxruby at qualitycode.com>
> Reply-To: General discussion of wxRuby <wxruby-users at
rubyforge.org>
> To: General discussion of wxRuby <wxruby-users at rubyforge.org>
> Subject: [Wxruby-users] Screen readers and email (was: Advanced text
>     editor developed with WxRuby)
>
> On Sun, 2006-06-11 at 08:51 +0200, Rolf Marvin B?e Lindgren wrote:
> Kevin Smith <wxruby at qualitycode.com> writes:
>
> > First off, I''ll mention that I am writing my message at the
top, and
> > quoting the original thread below. My understanding is that this is
> > easier to navigate if you''re using a screen reader.
>
> my experience is that it''s not. are you aware of any research to
back
> up this claim?
>
Research? No. I believe I heard mention of it back when I was more
involved with that technology. Logically, it would make sense that
skipping arbitrary sections of quoted material to get to the new text
could be difficult. I certainly wouldn''t want to listen to the entire
message (quoted and new) being read.

I suppose expensive screen readers have the ability to skip quoted
material (as long as it is quoted in a standard way), when using very
popular email clients like Outlook. It''s also likely that technology
has
improved over the last few years. But it seems likely that some screen
readers on some platforms using some email clients would probably have
fewer fancy features like that.

If you (or anyone else) has actual experience one way or the other, I
would certainly defer to that.

Kevin


_______________________________________________
wxruby-users mailing list
wxruby-users at rubyforge.org
http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/wxruby-users

My understanding, too, is that WxWidgets is the only cross-platform GUI
library that is truly accessible at present--at least on Windows.
Perhaps GTK works with the alpha version of Orca, a Unix screen reader,
but I am told that TK, FX, and other GUI libraries typically used with
Perl, Python,or Ruby do not work with screen readers under Windows
nearly as well as native widgets that incorporate the accessibility API
of the operating system, Microsoft Active Accessibility (MSAA).


As testimony to the Ruby language and the WxRuby library, I have been
getting rave reviews in the blind community about the TextPal editor!
This is gratifying and and I thank the Rubyists on this list and
elsewhere who have helped to make this possible.

Jamal
On Sun, 11 Jun 2006, Kevin
Smith wrote:
> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 02:18:30 -0400
> From: Kevin Smith <wxruby at qualitycode.com>
> Reply-To: General discussion of wxRuby <wxruby-users at
rubyforge.org>
> To: General discussion of wxRuby <wxruby-users at rubyforge.org>
> Subject: Re: [Wxruby-users] Advanced text editor developed with WxRuby
>
> Hi Jamal (and everyone else),
>
> First off, I''ll mention that I am writing my message at the top,
and
> quoting the original thread below. My understanding is that this is
> easier to navigate if you''re using a screen reader.
>
> Sorry I didn''t reply earlier. I''m in a crazy-busy phase
of my life right
> now, and am neglecting even important tasks. Hopefully things will ease
> up within a few weeks.
>
> Compatibility with screen readers is what inspired me to work on wxruby.
> I worked for a company that targeted blind users, so I became quite
> aware of the drawbacks of non-native widgets. That''s why I
continue to
> mention that wx is the only mature, cross-platform, native-widget GUI
> library out there, and why wxruby is important to the community. Maybe I
> also need to add "liberally licensed" since I think it''s
important for
> low-level libraries to be usable in low-budget proprietary apps.
>
> For Linux and Windows, I think GTK may also meet that description, or if
> not, it probably will soon (because they are improving their Windows
> support). But as far as I know, it still won''t support Mac.
>
> As Alex mentioned, wxruby 0.6.0 is somewhat unstable, and is basically
> unsupported. wxruby2 is also somewhat unstable, but all our efforts are
> going into improving it. The future definitely lies with wxruby2 because
> it is far easier to maintain and enhance, thanks to SWIG.
>
> Kevin
>
>
> On Thu, 2006-06-08 at 19:11 +0100, Alex Fenton wrote:
> > Hi Jamal
> >
> > Thanks for some very interesting info about your work with WxRuby -
> > sorry for such a delay in replying. I know others are busy, and
I''ve
> > just started a new job and half-moved city.
> >
> > Jamal Mazrui wrote:
> > > I just joined this list, have info to share, and some questions.
> > >
> > > As background, I happen to be a blind person who uses a screen
reader
> > > utility to operate the computer ... This
> > > generally works well for standard or common controls of Windows,
which
> > > WxWidgets wraps (since they are native to the Windows OS).
> > That is interesting to know - and an extra selling point for WxRuby. I
> > have found that Windows automation apps like AutoIt also seem to get
on
> > quite well with WxRuby apps (I was considering using it for unit
> > testing, but never did anything substantial).
> >
> > I''d be interested in your opinion of the Wx::Accessible
class, which is
> > new in 2.6.x I think, and aims to provide a cross-platform
accessibility
> > API.
> >
http://www.wxwindows.org/manuals/2.6.3/wx_wxaccessible.html#wxaccessible
> > see also:
> > http://wxwindows.kn.vutbr.cz/access.htm
> > > I have developed a text editor, TextPal, with a rich feature set
that is
> > > optimized for screen reader users.
> > > http://www.EmpowermentZone.com/palsetup.exe
> > >
> > I haven''t yet tried it (don''t have admin rights on
this PC!) but am
> > looking forward to giving it a spin. Is source available?
> > > I notice that TextPal sometimes crashes fatally for no apparent
reason.
> > > The cause could be errors in my code
> > Well, it shouldn''t really crash fatally without any clue
what''s going
> > wrong - but it does
> > >   My
> > > code mainly uses the menu system, multi-line edit control, and
event
> > > methods.  Are there general tips that can minimize the chance of
a
> > > crash?
> > >
> > One thing I have found working with wxruby 0.6.0 is that you can cause
> > ''pure virtual memory'' errors (Windows) by trying to
access methods of
> > destroyed widgets. E.g. you keep a reference to a UI widget in a hash,
> > destroy the widget, then later try and access the widget through the
> > hash. Don''t do that.
> >
> > Also be careful with ItemData / ClientData. I recommend avoiding these
> > as these also cause memory management problems. They can easily be
> > simulated using Ruby hashes and arrays.
> >
> > Some methods also segfault when passed invalid values, which they
should
> > ignore or raise an Exception. See if you''re calling one of
these methods.
> > > I know that WxRuby2 has been in development for a while.  Is
there a
> > > binary version for Windows that I could now try?
> > Not quite yet - the current development target is to release an alpha
> > binary for Windows. It''s tantalisingly close - but
unfortunately the
> > main developers aren''t able to contribute much volunteer time
just at
> > the moment.
> > >  Is it now more stable than the previous wrappers?
> > Opinions vary, and of course stability changes because it''s
under active
> > development. I find it roughly similar to the non-Swig wrapper
overall,
> > but the bugs are in different places ;)
> > > How does its feature set compare?
> > >
> > There are a good number of extra features (classes and methods) in
> > wxruby2. There are also a few missing methods and classes. The main
> > things currently missing are drag''n''drop support and
html easy printing.
> >
> > A comparison is here.
> >
> >
http://wxruby.rubyforge.org/wiki/wiki.pl?What_Classes_Are_Implemented_In_Wxruby
> > > TextPal is free and open source in the normal spirit of the Ruby
> > > community.  By default, the installer places the source code at
> > > C:\Program Files\TextPal\TextPal.rbw
> > >
> > Not sure if your installer requires the user to install ruby and
wxruby
> > first. You know you can use rubyscript2exe to distribute a complete,
> > standalone .exe that works for an end user completely like a compiled
app?
> > > If anyone has tips on how I could improve the code, I would
appreciate
> > > it.  In particular, I am trying to better manage the sizes of the
main
> > > window and the MDI child windows.
> > In Weft QDA (an app I wrote and work on) I wrote a fair bit of code to
> > auto-initialize different MDI window types to a proportion of the MDI
> > parent, and also to remember and restore the dimensions of MDI child
> > windows. The app is at http://www.pressure.to/qda/ and some relevant
> > code is
> >
http://rubyforge.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/weft-qda/lib/weft/wxgui/inspectors.rb?revision=1.19&root=weft-qda&view=markup
> >
> > > Currently, if one maximizes the main
> > > TextPal window, it does not occupy the whole desktop.
> > What method are you using? Wx::Frame.maximize() works for me IIRC.
> >
> >
> > > A more bothersome
> > > problem is that the cursor gets stuck when down arrowing at the
bottom of
> > > an edit window.  The Ed_Maximize method responds to a Windows
sizing
> > > event, so perhaps the solution lies in correcting this code.
> > >
> > I''m not quite sure what you mean - I will have a look when I
try your
> > app out. You mention that you''re handling SizeEvents - I am
curious -
> > are you using Sizers for layout? They reduce or remove the need for a
> > lot of size event handling.
> >
> > cheers
> > alex
> > _______________________________________________
> > wxruby-users mailing list
> > wxruby-users at rubyforge.org
> > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/wxruby-users
>
> _______________________________________________
> wxruby-users mailing list
> wxruby-users at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/wxruby-users
>

I bounce back and forth between top-post and inline-quoted emails pretty
easily. Each has advantages and disadvantages, to the author and to the
reader, and depending on how familiar each participant is with the
material in the thread.

For sighted folks, with good email readers, it''s pretty easy to skip
over the quoted parts if you already know the context. It''s pretty
efficient, as long as the person replying did a good job of editing down
the original text. I suppose something similar in an audio interface
would be that the quoted material would be low-volume and perhaps sped
up, with a button to skip to the end of that quoted block to hear the
new material.

The challenge with top-posting is if you are responding to 5 or 10
specific points in the original material. It can be a bit difficult to
construct the reply in a way that the connections between the original
material and the responses are clear.

Inline quoting is more widely used on mailing lists, so I tend to follow
convention there. Top-posting is more common in company emails, so I
tend follow that convention where appropriate.

Either form is fine to use on this list. 

Kevin


On Mon, 2006-06-12 at 08:11 -0400, Jamal Mazrui wrote:
> I do find it much easier to read top-posted email with a screen reader.
> I have been criticized for top posting on the Ruby-Talk mailing list, so
> understand that this style is usually not preferred by sighted persons.
> When I top post, I try to summarize the points to which I am responding
> in order to provide context.  It surprises me, in fact, that this
> technique would not often be better for sighted persons as well, since
> it seems potentially tedious and confusing to sort through quotes and
> interpolations to understand what the writer is addressing.  Since
> quotes can be done selectively anyway, why not summarize the points to
> which one is responding as fairly and succinctly as possible?  If
> someone wants the verbatim quote, he or she can look further down the
> message--unless it has already become long, in which case I suggest
> truncating the message after the previous one.
> 
> At any rate, I do not expect to change minds about netiquette here,
> since some evidently approach it with religious fervor!  I do appreciate
> the consideration of users with disabilities in the development of
> WxRuby and in communication style on this list.
> 
> Jamal
> On Sun, 11 Jun 2006, Kevin
> Smith wrote:
> 
> > Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 23:10:55 -0400
> > From: Kevin Smith <wxruby at qualitycode.com>
> > Reply-To: General discussion of wxRuby <wxruby-users at
rubyforge.org>
> > To: General discussion of wxRuby <wxruby-users at rubyforge.org>
> > Subject: [Wxruby-users] Screen readers and email (was: Advanced text
> >     editor developed with WxRuby)
> >
> > On Sun, 2006-06-11 at 08:51 +0200, Rolf Marvin B?e Lindgren wrote:
> > Kevin Smith <wxruby at qualitycode.com> writes:
> >
> > > First off, I''ll mention that I am writing my message at
the top, and
> > > quoting the original thread below. My understanding is that this
is
> > > easier to navigate if you''re using a screen reader.
> >
> > my experience is that it''s not. are you aware of any research
to back
> > up this claim?
> >
> 
> Research? No. I believe I heard mention of it back when I was more
> involved with that technology. Logically, it would make sense that
> skipping arbitrary sections of quoted material to get to the new text
> could be difficult. I certainly wouldn''t want to listen to the
entire
> message (quoted and new) being read.
> 
> I suppose expensive screen readers have the ability to skip quoted
> material (as long as it is quoted in a standard way), when using very
> popular email clients like Outlook. It''s also likely that
technology has
> improved over the last few years. But it seems likely that some screen
> readers on some platforms using some email clients would probably have
> fewer fancy features like that.
> 
> If you (or anyone else) has actual experience one way or the other, I
> would certainly defer to that.
> 
> Kevin
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> wxruby-users mailing list
> wxruby-users at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/wxruby-users
> _______________________________________________
> wxruby-users mailing list
> wxruby-users at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/wxruby-users

--- Jamal Mazrui <empower at smart.net> wrote:
> My understanding, too, is that WxWidgets is the only cross-platform GUI
> library that is truly accessible at present--at least on Windows.
> [snip]
> native widgets that incorporate the accessibility API
> of the operating system, Microsoft Active Accessibility (MSAA).
> 
If GTK+ comes with an accessibility API, wouldn''t that work
fine on the Win32 port?

Hm. This seems to be the relevant Gnome page:
http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gap/
> [snip]
> Perhaps GTK works with the alpha version of Orca, a Unix screen reader,
> but I am told that TK, FX, and other GUI libraries typically used with
> Perl, Python,or Ruby do not work with screen readers under Windows
I guess the toolkit itself would have to implement the appropriate
accessibility API, and the software written using that toolkit would
have to actually make use of it.

By the way, regarding GTK+ on the Mac, I thought there was some
activity on this front recently. I remember reading about it as
pretty big news on OSNews.com. I think this:

http://micke.hallendal.net/archives/2005/10/gtk-macosx.html

was the original announcement, and the project page seems to be:

http://developer.imendio.com/wiki/Gtk_Mac_OS_X

This message
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gtk-devel-list/2006-May/msg00208.html
says it''s (in some form) already in GTK+ 2.9. From looking at the
ML archives, it looks like there''s interest, and the project is
still a "work in progress".

Food for thought anyway. Although I''ve never fiddled with RubyGTK
(http://ruby-gnome2.sourceforge.jp/) nor wxRuby, I''ve always liked
the idea of "one standard toolkit" that isn''t layered upon
too much
else besides low-level drawing libs.

---John


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