The page to see this if you cannot see HTML on e-mail or just want to look at all of it is. Sometimes, if it is reasonable, people would prefer not to search around to web sites so I am posting highlights in HTML as well as giving the link. Could someone buy me a DMC-800 :-). Why I always look for components and off brands that focus on engineering rather than marketing is that they are not in the business of trying to control the marketplace with a lot propritary hardware/software in it. Usually, quite the opposite. I just saw an amazing item to me about the DMC 800, that it uses conventional notebook PC hard drives, not propriatary. So as the technology of the notebook PC disk drives improves and gets less expensive, you can replace the DMC 800 drive with a standard notebook disk drive, Just like a PC can with USB or IDE drives. No propriatary software needed to to run, thereforer it is PC independent as long as there is a USB port. So this sucker can output and input from just about anything. Some others, and I wonder if this has it, have the ability to store and play Divx movies as well. Again, this is not an advertisement, just something to show all that if you get past the Apple marketing and are not concerned about being "in" and comfortable without using a "brand name" device, there are a lot of iPOD alternatives out there that do not allow the vendor to lock you in to any propriatary formats. Jon http://www.digmind.com/store/index_800.html Front View (click to enlarge) Top View (click to enlarge) How do you improve on the critically acclaimed DMC 500, one of the best digital music players on the market? Our answer was to pack even more features into it, and then warp it all in to a smaller, sleeker, sexier case. We proudly present the DMC 800, the newest member of the DMC product line. With the addition of a new 1.8 inch hard drive, we've managed to pack all the best features of the the DMC 500 into a beautiful 2.6" x 3.9" x 0.86" frame - and yes, before you ask, that's smaller than an iPod. The DMC 800 also features all the great things that made its predecessor so impressive: an FM Tuner with encoding (so you can record as you listen), a voice recorder with built-in mic, an analog/optical line-in so you can digitally record from any source at up to 320 kb/s, and the ability to play a multitude of digital file types. We've even added WAV and Ogg Vorbis support for you audiophiles and Linux users out there. Finally, like its predecessor, the 800 is both PC and Mac compatible, needing no software of any kind - just plug it in and it shows up as a regular hard drive. If it can get any easier we'd like to know how. Click a player to place it in your shopping cart *hours of music based on Windows Media format at 64kb/s Customer Support Shipping Charges view cart detailed info accessories Portable Storage Device a.. 1.8" 20GB Hard Drive b.. USB 2.0 c.. Plug & Play (No installation CD required) a.. MP3, WMA, OGG Vorbis, WAV Music Playback a.. FM Tuner a.. FM Recording a.. Voice Recording a.. Appears as another hard drive when connected to your PC a.. Can back-up document files and images as an external hard drive a.. Just drag & drop files from Windows Explorer or Mac a.. USB 2.0 supported a.. Super fast downloads (maximum 480Mbps) a.. USB 2.0 supported as well as USB1.1 a.. Self-Charging Function a.. Built in Lithium Ion Rechargeable Battery a.. Firmware upgrade ability a.. Supported OS : MAC & Win 98/ME/2000/XP a.. Manufactured in the USA a.. Firmware upgradable via USB Comparison Table to Creative Zen or Apple iPOD top Model DMC 800 Creative Zen Apple iPOD Image Supported Format MP3 (8 - 320Kbps, VBR) & WMA(32-192Kbps), Ogg Vorbis, WAV MP3, WMA MP3 (CBR & VBR up to 320kbps), WAV, AIFF, Audible, and AAC/MP4 (up to 320kbs) Power Source Lithium-Ion Rechargeable or 5V DC power 5v DC Power, USB connector, or internal rechargeable lithium-ion battery Internal rechargeable lithium polymer battery (630 mAH) or 12V DC power (through proprietary port on bottom of player) Battery Life 12 hrs Firewire Zen: 12 hours USB2 Zen: 14 hours Around 8 hours Storage 20GB/40GB 1.8" laptop drive installed 20GB/40GB/60GB model 15GB, 20GB and 40GB models Radio FM tuner Yes, with optional FM Remote Yes with 3rd party hardware FM Radio Record Yes Yes, with FM Remote, to .WAV Yes with 3rd party hardware Record Yes Yes, with FM Remote, to .WAV Yes with 3rd party hardware Hard-Drive Upgrades Yes, any 1.8" laptop hard drive upgrades YES, Fujitsu or other low-power 2.5" notebook hard-drive, currently to 60GB. No, iPod uses modified Toshiba 1.8" drives with custom firmware. Generic 1.8" drives will not work Music Offloading Yes, no software required Any PC with PlayCenter installed Any PC with Ephpod installed Line-Out No No Yes, but only through the standard apple docking base or through an adapter cable using the Ipod's bottom-side I/O port. Line-In Record Yes, MP3 encoding at selectable quality (32kbit/s - 320 kbit/s). Both analog-in and digital input S/PDIF (IEC958) ports No Yes, with 3rd party hardware Voice Record Yes, with built-in microphone. Voice Recording at at selectable quality (128kbit/s - 32 kbit/s) Yes, with mic on FM Remote only. creates mono .WAV files. can Yes, with 3rd party hardware Music Loading No installation CD required Drag and drop MP3's on PlayCenter; files indexed by ID3 tags Drag and drop MP3's on EphPod; files indexed by ID3 tags Play Modes Single, Directory, All, AB Repeat, Shuffle, Intro Normal, shuffle, repeat Normal, shuffle songs or albums, repeat Playlist Support Yes Yes Yes Firmware Upgradeable Yes Yes Yes -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/vorbis/attachments/20040730/1f16275a/attachment.htm