Hi,
I've already sent this to feedback@vorbis.com, but I got no response
and this might be more correctly placed here anyway, so here is a
revised vesrion.
I have one thing to criticize, which is the file extension *.OGG.
It's ambigous (the Netrek meaning) and using it for both video and
audio seems confusing. Plus, there are a lot of OGG files floating
around that are generated by the current beta versions of the
encoder. These could be confused with the files generated by the
final version. Changing the extension in the final release would
easily fix this problem. (Of course you can have version information
within the file, but usually this information cannot be accessed
before a download.)
Searching for OGG on AltaVista produces Hawaii photo pages, family
names, private homepages, university names .. but no music. I think a
good extension should be more unique. Granted, should OGG become so
popular that everything else with OGG in it is in the minority this
is no longer a big problem. Granted, also, with search for file
extensions specifically, you won't have many OGG results. Still, I
feel that while in early development, it would be useful to make a
change to the name of the extension.
Without much further ado, here are some suggestions for alternative
extensions:
Without numbers:
VOX - for Vorbis (V) Oggs (OX) & Latin Vox = Voice
MOX - for movies
These are hardly unique in the search engine respect, but sound good
and are different for movies and audio. According to www.wotsit.org,
they are not taken.
With numbers:
V0X - note that is a zero between the V and the X
this would be increased with each new version of the
specs - 1513 hits on AltaVista
M0X - same here - 173 hits
- - -
XS1 - for sound
XV1 - for video
- - -
OV1 - for Ogg Vorbis, Type 1 .. type 2 for video etc.
That's all I can think of right now, but maybe you can brainstorm for
more.
Best regards,
Erik Moeller
--
Scientific Reviewer, Freelancer, Humanist -- Berlin/Germany
Phone: +49-30-45491008 - Web: <http://www.humanist.de/erik>
The Origins of Peace and Violence: <http://www.violence.de>
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I would have to agree with this.
My preference would be .og3 as that would help in consumer recognition and
make for better uptake. I suppose a more technically valid one would be
'oga' for audio and 'ogv' for audio-video but I feel that .og3
would do
better.
cya, Andrew...
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Erik Moeller [SMTP:moeller@scireview.de]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 8:40 AM
> To: vorbis@xiph.org
> Subject: [vorbis] File Extension .OGG
>
> Hi,
>
> I've already sent this to feedback@vorbis.com, but I got no response
> and this might be more correctly placed here anyway, so here is a
> revised vesrion.
>
> I have one thing to criticize, which is the file extension *.OGG.
> It's ambigous (the Netrek meaning) and using it for both video and
> audio seems confusing. Plus, there are a lot of OGG files floating
> around that are generated by the current beta versions of the
> encoder. These could be confused with the files generated by the
> final version. Changing the extension in the final release would
> easily fix this problem. (Of course you can have version information
> within the file, but usually this information cannot be accessed
> before a download.)
>
> Searching for OGG on AltaVista produces Hawaii photo pages, family
> names, private homepages, university names .. but no music. I think a
> good extension should be more unique. Granted, should OGG become so
> popular that everything else with OGG in it is in the minority this
> is no longer a big problem. Granted, also, with search for file
> extensions specifically, you won't have many OGG results. Still, I
> feel that while in early development, it would be useful to make a
> change to the name of the extension.
>
> Without much further ado, here are some suggestions for alternative
> extensions:
>
> Without numbers:
> VOX - for Vorbis (V) Oggs (OX) & Latin Vox = Voice
> MOX - for movies
> These are hardly unique in the search engine respect, but sound good
> and are different for movies and audio. According to www.wotsit.org,
> they are not taken.
>
> With numbers:
> V0X - note that is a zero between the V and the X
> this would be increased with each new version of the
> specs - 1513 hits on AltaVista
> M0X - same here - 173 hits
> - - -
> XS1 - for sound
> XV1 - for video
> - - -
> OV1 - for Ogg Vorbis, Type 1 .. type 2 for video etc.
>
> That's all I can think of right now, but maybe you can brainstorm for
> more.
>
> Best regards,
> Erik Moeller
> --
> Scientific Reviewer, Freelancer, Humanist -- Berlin/Germany
> Phone: +49-30-45491008 - Web: <http://www.humanist.de/erik>
> The Origins of Peace and Violence: <http://www.violence.de>
>
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Erik Moeller (moeller@scireview.de) wrote : [snip]> Without much further ado, here are some suggestions for alternative > extensions: > > Without numbers: > VOX - for Vorbis (V) Oggs (OX) & Latin Vox = Voice > MOX - for movies > These are hardly unique in the search engine respect, but sound good > and are different for movies and audio. According to www.wotsit.org, > they are not taken. > > With numbers: > V0X - note that is a zero between the V and the X > this would be increased with each new version of the > specs - 1513 hits on AltaVista > M0X - same here - 173 hits > - - - > XS1 - for sound > XV1 - for video > - - - > OV1 - for Ogg Vorbis, Type 1 .. type 2 for video etc. > > That's all I can think of right now, but maybe you can brainstorm for > more.And to remove even more confusion I recommend to also do the following changes : - rename all uncompressed PCM WAV files to .WAVPCM or .WCM for short. - WAV mp3 -> .wm3 - WAV mp2 -> .wm2 - WAV ADPCM -> .wam - WAV GSM -> .wsm - WAV A-law -> .walaw OR loose any reference to WAV, because it confuses users ( like .mp3, .mp3 , .adpcm , .gsm , .alaw ... ) I also think that using the .AVI extension to AVI files is confusing. I recommend using the following , according to actual content : - .indeo for Intel/Indeo movies - .cnpk for Radius Cinepak compressed animations - .rle for RLE encoded anims - .msv for Microsoft Video compressed anims Then for all animations that have sound the following : - .indeo-pcm for Indeo movies with PCM sound - .indeo-adpcm for Indeo movies with ADPCM compressed sound - .indeo-gsm for Indeo movies with GSM compressed sound - .indeo-alaw for Indeo movies with A-law compressed sound - .cnpk-pcm you get the idea - and so on for each possible combination Off course the same most be done with all of the Quicktime files. And MPEG. And IFF. And TIFF. ( and others that I don't recall right now ) Don't forget to also create new MIME types for all of them. Then you can also extend the idea one more step : .indeo-adpcm-vacation for vacation movies in Indeo format with GSM sound. Which can be extended to .indeo-adpcm-vacation-europe and so on for each continent. This will make a vast improvement for Web searches ! Just imagine : Enter "indeo gsm summer vacation hawaii" into AltaVista and you get Ideo movies with GSM sound of hawaiian vacations on summer and nothing else ! Actually we should pick three random bytes from each file on the HD and append them to the filename ( with a dot in between , off course ). ... Ok, I'm calm now. Really I am. David Balazic P.S.: To summarize : I oppose adding any file name extensions to OGG files , except for .ogg. --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
Well can we have the player accept any file that matches *.og? to at least
allow the possibility for those that want to be able to tell the difference
when downloading?
Also are there some magic numbers available yet to tell them apart?
cya, Andrew...
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Lyons [SMTP:fusion@nmt.edu]
> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 9:06 AM
> To: vorbis@xiph.org
> Subject: Re: [vorbis] File Extension .OGG
>
> On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Ross Levis wrote:
>
> > The problem using the same extension for audio & video files is
the
> confusion
> > that will occur for downloaders. If someone is searching the Internet
> for just
> > the audio of a song, video files may clutter the results, and the only
> way of
> > identification will most likely be the filesize.
>
> that and the identification information. that is to say, doing a filename
> search will have this problem, but if you're searching using
information
> in the identification (a la ID3 tag, forgive me for not knowing the name
> of what this is with Vorbis) then you're not going to find the wrong
> stuff.
>
> Daniel
>
>
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On Thu, Jun 29, 2000 at 11:53:39PM +0800, Angus Griffin wrote:> Even though this seems a worryingly pointless discussion, I'll put my two > bob in. > > I feel that the .ogg extension is sufficient for BOTH formats, as I assume > players will be 'expected' to decode both audio and video files... andthat> they will be part of the same file format. It would be silly to name them > any differently. And heck, it's a kinda nifty extension anyway, who could > ask for more?This is far too optimistic an attitude to take for a fledgling encoding format. I assume of course that the developers of the Ogg formats wish to see as widespread an acceptance of the formats as possible (as do I); if this is the case, utilizing a single extension for both audio and video files isn't the wisest of courses. Already, there have been plugins released for various audio players to support Vorbis audio files. If your end users prefer a particular audio player, and associate the OGG file extension with that player, what's going to happen when the video format goes live? You can hardly expect to write a video plugin for Winamp, for example. Nor can you expect them to switch to a "preferred" (i.e. plays both OGG audio and video) player when they'd rather have plugins for their preexisting favorite players. Your end users are by and large going to use an audio player for audio files and a video player for video; forcing them to choose one or the other to be properly associated will only frustrate, annoy, and reduce the likelyhood of Ogg going mainstream. Tom "Korpios" Tobin korpios@korpios.com --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
How about using : .ogg.vorbis for OGG Vorbis files .ogg.video for OGG video files and .ogg for "the rest" Or something similar ( .ogg-vorbis , .vorbis-ogg etc. ) David Balazic P.S.: And how about forgetting about the filename, like 'file' on unix systems. It can pinpoint the types of files without considering their name. --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
Extensions with dots in them just doesn't work in NT4. If i register .foo.bar then windoze converts it into .foobar . As for registering more apps for the same type , it is possible in NT4 too and I guess in win9x also. Just open the "File Types" dialog, select the type , "Edit..." and under "Actions:" click "New". I like the idea of launcher very much. A thing like this should pe part of the OS ( or the shell ) ! David Balazic Alain Bertrand wrote :> It if far worse than that. You are able to register a .foo.ogg > extension, and it works. But I noticed that in a lot of places (the > tool to add extension, a in the registry at least) the extension > is changed to fooogg, without any ".". .foo.ogg works as long as > there > is no registered .ogg, because at this moment .foo.ogg is no longer > recognized (only .ogg is seen). Strangely .fooogg works also, but as > .foo.ogg ... > > So .foo.ogg functions (including .fooogg) but the first app to > register > .ogg will have have priority over .foo.ogg. > > All the tests have been done on NT4, I don't know if there is > another behaviour on Win9X or 2K. Win2k offers a possibility to > associate more that one application to an extension, on primary which > is used on double-click, but a right click offers a menu 'open with' > with > all applications already used to open this file and "other" for a > selection in the list of all registered apps. > > I think the launcher is the best idea, and offers by far the most > possibilities. That way it would also be possible to determine the > player > based on a combination of streams, e.g. only video player A, but > video > and audio player B, and so on. That way one is able to start the > player > which handles best the available streams. If nobody other is going to > write I guess I will have to do it. > > Alain > > Angus Griffin wrote: > > > > <snip blah> > > > I'm happy with the .foo.ogg compromise so long as...<snip> > > The only problem being that (afaik) windows only cares about the 'last' > > extension. In the case of .foo.ogg, it only really bothers with the .ogg > > part. This kind of rules it out as being a useful solution. > > > > Angus > >--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
Erik> Then you have to explain to users who have never seen such a Erik> thing why it is necessary. "But I change the file associations Erik> under View|Options|File Types, why can't I do that for OGG?" Monty> You still can. Erik> Yes, but not individually for audio and video files. It seems to me that most of the multiple extensions arguments are geared towards Windows Power users. I think that a single extension will make more sense to less sophisticated users. People don't complain about `Excel' data being embedded in word documents. Most people don't install 50 different audio players. They feel victorious when they download and install just one. Perhaps we would accept the fact that simple installation for all of these possible formats might be good for attracting people who don't know what they are doing. Now, I do see some argument for segregating the files with different data. Most music players have random, libraries, and notation features that might not make sense with other data. I think that you may wish to have separate players. Do you always `click' on a single MP3 and then go 2-5 minutes later to click on another? I don't think that double clicking is a frequent mode of use for MP3 audio files... but maybe I am strange. fwiw, Bill -- Good judgment comes from bad experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.