Vorbis dev - Sep 2012 - Feedback about Vorbis Comment Chapter Extension

Hallo again!

Some month ago we discussed about the Vorbis Comment Chapter Extension:
http://wiki.xiph.org/Chapter_Extension

I got some critics about this specification, especially from the VLC 
developers:
see https://trac.videolan.org/vlc/ticket/6895

Some parts of it:
<cite>
This specification allows holes between chapters and allows overlapping 
chapters... And does not explain what to do in those cases.

This specification allows hierarchical chapters without defining correct 
titles (DVD/BD) or editions (MKV).
</cite>

Also in the VLC forum 
(http://forum.videolan.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=103971):
<cite>
This specification is too stupid for us to implement.
For example, it allows overlapping chapters... Or parts without chapters.
It allows infinite tree of chapters, etc...
</cite>


I have to say that I can understand the critics, the specification is 
much too complex. And it's sad that this should be the reason, why 
nobody wants to implement it ...
Especially because the new Opus format could use the Chapter Extension 
too, which would be really great for podcasts etc.!

Maybe it's possible to adapt the specification (so far no player 
supports it)?
At the beginning, I proposed the same format as in matroska: 
http://savvyadmin.com/adding-chapters-to-videos-using-mkv-containers/
This would be much simpler, easier to implement and consistent.

At least we should discuss with VLC and other developers, otherwise this 
specification is useless ...

Thanks for the attention!
LG
Georg

-- 
auphonic - automatic audio post production
http://auphonic.com
audio development, machine learning, open source and more

I don't remember why we gave chapters start and end time, but I have
no problem with dropping the end time if that makes it implementable.

Cheers,
Silvia.

On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 1:20 AM, Georg Holzmann <grh at mur.at>
wrote:
> Hallo again!
>
> Some month ago we discussed about the Vorbis Comment Chapter Extension:
> http://wiki.xiph.org/Chapter_Extension
>
> I got some critics about this specification, especially from the VLC
> developers:
> see https://trac.videolan.org/vlc/ticket/6895
>
> Some parts of it:
> <cite>
> This specification allows holes between chapters and allows overlapping
> chapters... And does not explain what to do in those cases.
>
> This specification allows hierarchical chapters without defining correct
> titles (DVD/BD) or editions (MKV).
> </cite>
>
> Also in the VLC forum
> (http://forum.videolan.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=103971):
> <cite>
> This specification is too stupid for us to implement.
> For example, it allows overlapping chapters... Or parts without chapters.
> It allows infinite tree of chapters, etc...
> </cite>
>
>
> I have to say that I can understand the critics, the specification is
> much too complex. And it's sad that this should be the reason, why
> nobody wants to implement it ...
> Especially because the new Opus format could use the Chapter Extension
> too, which would be really great for podcasts etc.!
>
> Maybe it's possible to adapt the specification (so far no player
> supports it)?
> At the beginning, I proposed the same format as in matroska:
> http://savvyadmin.com/adding-chapters-to-videos-using-mkv-containers/
> This would be much simpler, easier to implement and consistent.
>
> At least we should discuss with VLC and other developers, otherwise this
> specification is useless ...
>
> Thanks for the attention!
> LG
> Georg
>
> --
> auphonic - automatic audio post production
> http://auphonic.com
> audio development, machine learning, open source and more
> _______________________________________________
> Vorbis-dev mailing list
> Vorbis-dev at xiph.org
> http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/vorbis-dev

"R.L. Horn" wrote:
...
> (I do have to ask, why "-->"?  That's an awfully clumsy
token.)
To match WebVTT (and, yes, it is an awfully
clumsy token).

-- 
Martin J Leese
E-mail: martin.leese  stanfordalumni.org
Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/

OK, I have fixed it. But I have left the numbering to a xxx number to
give it a bit more resolution. If they complain about that difference,
we can fix that, too, though I think that would be very restrictive.

Cheers,
Silvia.

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 5:48 PM, Georg Holzmann <grh at mur.at>
wrote:
> Hallo!
>
>> So, what if we used WebVTT for complex, hierarchical chapters and just
>> went with the simple Matroska-style chapters for vorbiscomment
>> headers?
>
> If nobody else is against that, could you update the chapter extension
> page at http://wiki.xiph.org/Chapter_Extension ?
>
> Then I will contact the VLC developers again ... ;)
>
> Thanks and have a nice day,
> LG
> Georg
>
> --
> auphonic - automatic audio post production
> http://auphonic.com
> audio development, machine learning, open source and more
> _______________________________________________
> Vorbis-dev mailing list
> Vorbis-dev at xiph.org
> http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/vorbis-dev

Am 2012-10-12 04:53, schrieb Silvia Pfeiffer:
> OK, I have fixed it. But I have left the numbering to a xxx number to
> give it a bit more resolution. If they complain about that difference,
> we can fix that, too, though I think that would be very restrictive.
Great - I told the VLC developers now about the changes and it seems 
that they will include it in the 2.1 version:
https://trac.videolan.org/vlc/ticket/6895

I also started a ticket at ffmpeg:
https://ffmpeg.org/trac/ffmpeg/ticket/1833
and a thread on hydrogen:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=97533

If someone knows other good places, please distribute the message ;)

Have a nice weekend,
LG
Georg

-- 
auphonic - automatic audio post production
http://auphonic.com
audio development, machine learning, open source and more