Hey, I'm not sure if this should be in -dev or not, so I'll post it here first. If that's wrong, LMK and I'll post it there. I have a friend who's running an online radio station, well, group of stations, actually. They're stuck in the .ra format, which I personally think sucks rocks. MP3 has a lot of flack surrounding it these days, as well as the problems that the RIAA doesn't like, such as being able to save a stream and stuff like that. Will a vorbis stream be able to be saved? Is it possible to somehow lable it private, such that it won't be able to be saved? Morality of the RIAA aside (I hate them personally, and think they should all die slow, painful deaths), this will be a key point, I think. If you can hear the music legally, without being able to save the stream (at least not easily), then I think vorbis will have another venue to get ahead in. RA encoders cost a mint, and you also need the servers, and the licenses per user, all of which add up to thousands and thousands of dollars. If Vorbis can do better, for cheaper, and have the stamp of the RIAA, then I think it would be a "good thing". Now, if they were to be "unsavable" streams, and yet another piece of software ignores that, that's all well and good too, as long as the server ends meets the RIAA requirements, that's all I care about. Ideas? Adam --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:09:30PM -0400, Adam Scriven wrote:> Hey, I'm not sure if this should be in -dev or not, so I'll post it here first. > If that's wrong, LMK and I'll post it there. > > I have a friend who's running an online radio station, well, group of > stations, actually. > They're stuck in the .ra format, which I personally think sucks rocks. MP3 > has a lot of flack surrounding it these days, as well as the problems that > the RIAA doesn't like, such as being able to save a stream and stuff like that. > > Will a vorbis stream be able to be saved? Is it possible to somehow lable > it private, such that it won't be able to be saved?No matter what a stream is simply _labelled_, you cannot prevent a user from saving or doing anything else with it. (You have the source, anyway...) They can always just intercept the sound card and capture the data that way. So the only good business model here would be encryption. How about everybody gives your friend their public ssh key, and encrypt the data that way? They'd still be able to save the data to disk (netcat?), but at least you know _who_ is doing it.> Morality of the RIAA aside (I hate them personally, and think they should > all die slow, painful deaths), this will be a key point, I think. If you > can hear the music legally, without being able to save the stream (at least > not easily), then I think vorbis will have another venue to get ahead > in. RA encoders cost a mint, and you also need the servers, and the > licenses per user, all of which add up to thousands and thousands of > dollars. If Vorbis can do better, for cheaper, and have the stamp of the > RIAA, then I think it would be a "good thing".Now for places where you _do_ control the data stream, e.g. a set-top box, you are free to do these things. A little smart card with a private key can work wonders.> Now, if they were to be "unsavable" streams, and yet another piece of > software ignores that, that's all well and good too, as long as the server > ends meets the RIAA requirements, that's all I care about.I don't know if simply labelling the stream "unsavable" will satisfy RIAA requirements. Just throw an extra bit into the header, for all that matters. The end decoder is free to ignore it, as always (mp3 has a "copyright" bit, but have you seen _any_ decoder that honors it?). Kenneth --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
>I'm more thinking about Real Audio streams. The provided software does not >allow saving. Yes, it's possible to sniff the sound card port, and do it >that way, but the RIAA doesn't seem to care about the, what 10% of people >who know how to do that. >If it became easy, if you could download MicroSoft SoundCard Sniffer, I >could see it being a problem, but since you can't, unless I've made an >incorrect fundamental assumption, I would say that that's good enough.Well windows allows you to switch to mixed recording and record whatever is going to the speakers. As easy as pressing record. Thanks M$ ;-) Matt --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
Adam Scriven wrote :>I'm more thinking about Real Audio streams. The provided software does not >allow saving. Yes, it's possible to sniff the sound card port, and do it >that way, but the RIAA doesn't seem to care about the, what 10% of people >who know how to do that. >If it became easy, if you could download MicroSoft SoundCard Sniffer, I >could see it being a problem, but since you can't, unless I've made an >incorrect fundamental assumption, I would say that that's good enough.Virtual Audio Cable - www.ntonyx.com/vac.html TotalRecorder - www.totalrecorder.com /proc/asound/dev/pcm00loopback on Linux/ALSA Anyway this is a concern for the player application and not for the codec or the format ( ok , could add tons of encryption and other crap to the format, but then nobody would use it, I know I won't ). Player apps are not exactly the focus of Monty or XIPH,Co. They are done by external entities , like Winamp, XMMS etc... David Balazic --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
Hello;
Has there been any work done on setting up a
RTP Payload Format for vorbis / ogg streams ? I searched through the e-mail
archives
and also the documentation, and could not come up with anything relating to
this.
If this has not been addressed, is anyone interested ? It might be possible to
create one in time for IETF-48,
the cut-off date is July 14.
(For the RTP standard see rfc1889 at
http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1889.txt , and an updated draft at
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rtp-new-07.txt )
( For an example (including MP3), see rfc2250 at
http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2250.txt
and an Internet draft at
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rtp-mp3-01.txt )
Regards
Marshall Eubanks
T.M. Eubanks
Multicast Technologies, Inc
10301 Democracy Lane, Suite 410
Fairfax, Virginia 22030
Phone : 703-293-9624
Fax : 703-293-9609
e-mail : tme@21rst-century.com tme@multicasttech.com
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Hello, I'm not sure which list, so I'll post it to both. I was thinking about this streaming thing again (thankfully, not about the info stream, but the audio stream. 8-) ), and I was wondering if it would be streamable like MP3, or more like Real Audio. MP3 players, like WinAMP, can stream without a special server. This may not be as reliable, streaming over HTTP, but it is quite handy. Will this be possible with Vorbis (dependent on the plug-ins)? And, if it IS possible, it should also pre-buffer the next coming song, if possible, so that the audio stream pauses as little as possible between songs, similar to how WinAMP does it. Thanks for any info! Adam Toronto, Ontario, Canada --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/
----- Original Message ----- From: "Adam Scriven" <scriven@lore.com> To: <vorbis@xiph.org>; <vorbis-dev@xiph.org> Sent: Friday, July 28, 2000 8:57 AM Subject: [vorbis] Streaming Considerations.> I was thinking about this streaming thing again (thankfully, not aboutthe> info stream, but the audio stream. 8-) ), and I was wondering if itwould> be streamable like MP3, or more like Real Audio. MP3 players, likeWinAMP,> can stream without a special server. This may not be as reliable, > streaming over HTTP, but it is quite handy. Will this be possiblewith> Vorbis (dependent on the plug-ins)? And, if it IS possible, it shouldalso> pre-buffer the next coming song, if possible, so that the audio stream > pauses as little as possible between songs, similar to how WinAMP doesit. Having work extensively with Windows Media and its player control for embedded objects, I was wondering very much the same thing. Something many people don't realize is that even using just the http protocol, there are radical differences in streamability between file formats. Compared to ASF audio/video, MPEG audio/video streams poorly and unreliably. The former is not cached at all on a hard drive, but downloaded direct to memory - usually with just enough data to maintain a 5-second buffer. MPEG audio/video, on the other hand, is read only from a hard drive cache. In terms of practical consequence, at modem bitrates a large MP3 encoded at 20k can take a full minute to begin playing via any protocol, whereas a 20k ASF/WMA file will begin streaming within seconds. At broadband bitrates, a 160k ASF will stream much more reliably than a 128k MP3 - and is far less prone to interruptions due to temporary bandwidth drop-off, and to flutter due to competition for computer bus resources. So I'm hoping that OGG, unlike MP3, is a non-cached file type like ASF (& which can also be a strong security feature for artists wishing to stream original content). In the long term, streamability plus adaptability to multichannel audio (beyond just 2-channels), are what I think will be the most important factors in the success of any format. An embeddable player object and control (or compatibility with an existing audio/video player like Real or MPlayer), I think are also very critical. Haven't seen much discussion addressing any of that. Regards, - Peter --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
------- Forwarded Message I'm replying to two messages. First : Adam Scriven (scriven@lore.com) wrote :> I was thinking about this streaming thing again (thankfully, not about the > info stream, but the audio stream. 8-) ), and I was wondering if it would > be streamable like MP3, or more like Real Audio. MP3 players, like WinAMP, > can stream without a special server. This may not be as reliable, > streaming over HTTP, but it is quite handy. Will this be possible with > Vorbis (dependent on the plug-ins)? And, if it IS possible, it should also > pre-buffer the next coming song, if possible, so that the audio stream > pauses as little as possible between songs, similar to how WinAMP does it.I don't see any reason why OGG-vorbis could not be streamed over HTTP or any other TCP based protocol. I streamed mp2 over FTP ages ago and it worked just fine. Second : Peter Shore (peteshore@home.com) wrote :> Having work extensively with Windows Media and its player control for > embedded objects, I was wondering very much the same thing. > > Something many people don't realize is that even using just the http > protocol, there are radical differences in streamability between file > formats. Compared to ASF audio/video, MPEG audio/video streams poorly > and unreliably. The former is not cached at all on a hard drive, but > downloaded direct to memory - usually with just enough data to maintain > a 5-second buffer. MPEG audio/video, on the other hand, is read only > from a hard drive cache.If this happens, then you have a bad or misconfigured mp3 player or www browser. You can stream MP3s over HTTP with WinAMP with no problems. A 10 hour mp3 starts playing after a few seconds ( when enough data is downloaded to fill the buffer ) and then plays nicely to the end.> In terms of practical consequence, at modem bitrates a large MP3 encoded > at 20k can take a full minute to begin playing via any protocol, whereas > a 20k ASF/WMA file will begin streaming within seconds. At broadband > bitrates, a 160k ASF will stream much more reliably than a 128k MP3 - > and is far less prone to interruptions due to temporary bandwidth > drop-off, and to flutter due to competition for computer bus resources.You are probably seeing the difference between an UDP based transport and a TCP based one. ( TCP sucks for radio type transmissions/broadcasts ).> So I'm hoping that OGG, unlike MP3, is a non-cached file type like ASF > (& which can also be a strong security feature for artists wishing to > stream original content).Again , this is not dependent on the file format , but the used transport method.> In the long term, streamability plus adaptability to multichannel audio > (beyond just 2-channels), are what I think will be the most important > factors in the success of any format. An embeddable player object and > control (or compatibility with an existing audio/video player like Real > or MPlayer), I think are also very critical. > > Haven't seen much discussion addressing any of that. > > Regards, > - PeterP.S.: I am not subscribed to the list , so this mail may not appear on it, unless Monty blesses it ( hint-hint :-) - -- David Balazic from http://surf.to/stein ------- End of Forwarded Message --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/