On 01/31/2015 11:28 PM, Ferenc Wagner wrote:> I for one don't expect insults after such a start. Please share your > thoughts, constructive feedback is always useful. Even if there may be > good reasons for some things being as they are.Ok Feri, of course there is no reason for insults, but still, some groups take offense at any criticism. If I sound bitchy it is only as feedback to help make the thing perfect. I find GRUB to be a bloated monster so I've always used LILO, but Joachim says he will stop supporting it at the end of this year and that means that Syslinux will have to replace LILO for me. You only loose your virginity once, which means that I can only give first impressions when they are first impressions, and of course I could be wrong about something. Still, a good project takes care to make things easy for the beginner, so: Docs: The wiki I think should at the very first direct you to the correct 'variant' for what media you are installing to (extlinux for me). As it is, on the web all the variants are often referred to generically as 'syslinux', and it's not till latter that you realize that you must find the correct variant. It would also be nice (tho probably much work), if each variant's page was complete. Jumping back and forth, one can become confused, for example 'syslinux' page says the device should be unmounted whereas 'extlinux' page says (right at the top, which is very nice) that the device should be mounted. And 'syslinux' seems able to install an MBR, but 'extlinux' seems not. (Why?) Speaking of MBRs, I tried over and over and kept getting 'Non-system disk or disk error' when trying to install to a USB stick. It turns out that a partition must be flagged bootable on a USB stick even tho (with LILO, anyway) it doesn't matter at all on a HDD. I understand that's a BIOS gotcha, not the fault of LILO or extlinux, however, perhaps there could be a check? Or maybe it's just my dumb BIOS. More information could be given about 'menu.c32'. It's not clear where to find it, and when you do find it there are three copies and it's not obvious which one you want. Then you try your first boot from extlinux and see the error about 'libutil.c32', so I'd mention that in the the wiki along with 'menu.c32'. And, again, it's not mentioned at all in the 'extlinux' page, so one is hopping back and forth. Vs. LILO: 'SAY' is nice. Longer labels is excellent. I guess not having to reinstall after changing the config is nice, but the reinstall with LILO isn't much of a problem. I miss LILOs 'boot =' and 'map =' and 'image =' features. It is nice to be able to have the first stage bootloader on one device and the map and/or image on another and the root FS on yet another: prompt verbose = 1 install = menu #boot = /dev/fd0 boot = /dev/sdb #boot = /dev/sdc #map = /boot/lilo.map-fd0-sdb2 map = /boot/lilo.map-sdb-sdb3 #map = /boot/lilo.map-sdb-sdb2 image = /boot/vmlinuz-3.16.0-4-686-pae initrd = /boot/initrd.img-3.16.0-4-686-pae root = "LABEL=y5--5-Debian1" label = y5:D1:16.0-4 ... I can boot anything from anything very easily, and one knows exactly what is going on. And everything is controlled from the one file. I routinely boot from floppy MBR to another device simply because by changing from one floppy to another I can change my default boot. And I can have as many map files as needed on the one '/boot' partition. It's indestructable. I miss not being able to 'root = "LABEL=' since I do all my booting via labels. When installing, I miss error checking (or is it there and I just did it perfect?) ... and those are my first impressions ;-)
> The wiki I think should at the very first direct you to the correct > 'variant' for what media you are installing to (extlinux for me). As it > is, on the web all the variants are often referred to generically as > 'syslinux', and it's not till latter that you realize that you must find > the correct variant. It would also be nice (tho probably much work), if > each variant's page was complete. Jumping back and forth, one can become > confused, for example 'syslinux' page says the device should be > unmounted whereas 'extlinux' page says (right at the top, which is very > nice) that the device should be mounted. And 'syslinux' seems able to > install an MBR, but 'extlinux' seems not. (Why?)Welcome to the Syslinux Mailing List :). FWIW (this info can be found elsewhere too): _ "SYSLINUX" refers the bootloader variant; _ 'syslinux' refers to a command (installer(s) of the bootloader for BIOS); _ "Syslinux" refers to "The Syslinux Project", or to a generic term for the user to replace with one/some/any/every/all bootloader variants of the Syslinux family; _ "EXTLINUX" refers the bootloader variant; _ "extlinux" refers to a command (installer(s) of the bootloader for BIOS); _ Some documentation might not be %100-correctly using the above terminology, partly because some of those who write documentation are not always aware of it and partly because those writing documentation don't always pay attention to these matters. Some documents were never updated after this terminology was decided upon. About the mount/umount difference, it refers to how the *installers* are expected to work, i.e. those commands that install the bootloader files on the adequate boot area (see http://www.syslinux.org/wiki/index.php/Install ).> > Speaking of MBRs, I tried over and over and kept getting 'Non-system > disk or disk error' when trying to install to a USB stick. It turns out > that a partition must be flagged bootable on a USB stick even tho (with > LILO, anyway) it doesn't matter at all on a HDD. I understand that's a > BIOS gotcha, not the fault of LILO or extlinux, however, perhaps there > could be a check? Or maybe it's just my dumb BIOS.The "active" partition is a part of how a (MBR) partition table (usually) works together with the MBR's boot code. There is (enough) information about such issues in the official Syslinux wiki and elsewhere (Distros' wiki pages, wikipedia, blogs, forums...). The Syslinux wiki also includes information about several alternative boot code for the MBR.> > More information could be given about 'menu.c32'. It's not clear where > to find it, and when you do find it there are three copies and it's not > obvious which one you want. Then you try your first boot from extlinux > and see the error about 'libutil.c32', so I'd mention that in the the > wiki along with 'menu.c32'. And, again, it's not mentioned at all in the > 'extlinux' page, so one is hopping back and forth.The Simple Menu System is not an exclusive part of the EXTLINUX bootloader (or exclusive to any one Syslinux variant), so it would not be the adequate place for such info. Internal links, wiki categories and the "search" feature in the official Syslinux wiki are available, together with official documentation published in several formats (the latter is not always up-to-date). See also: http://www.syslinux.org/wiki/index.php/Menu http://www.syslinux.org/wiki/index.php/Library_modules> > Vs. LILO: > > 'SAY' is nice. > Longer labels is excellent. > I guess not having to reinstall after changing the config is nice, but > the reinstall with LILO isn't much of a problem. > > I miss LILOs 'boot =' and 'map =' and 'image =' features. It is nice to > be able to have the first stage bootloader on one device and the map > and/or image on another and the root FS on yet another: > > prompt > verbose = 1 > install = menu > > #boot = /dev/fd0 > boot = /dev/sdb > #boot = /dev/sdc > > #map = /boot/lilo.map-fd0-sdb2 > map = /boot/lilo.map-sdb-sdb3 > #map = /boot/lilo.map-sdb-sdb2 > > image = /boot/vmlinuz-3.16.0-4-686-pae > initrd = /boot/initrd.img-3.16.0-4-686-pae > root = "LABEL=y5--5-Debian1" > label = y5:D1:16.0-4 > > ... I can boot anything from anything very easily, and one knows exactly > what is going on. And everything is controlled from the one file. I > routinely boot from floppy MBR to another device simply because by > changing from one floppy to another I can change my default boot. And I > can have as many map files as needed on the one '/boot' partition. It's > indestructable. > > I miss not being able to 'root = "LABEL=' since I do all my booting via > labels.Syslinux configuration is based on LABELs, so there is a slight difference when comparing to LILO. Please keep in mind that as of version 6.03, SYSLINUX can only find files (e.g. kernel, initrd...) located in the same volume where the bootloader is installed. In Syslinux there are no "variables" nor "macros" for the configuration files. You might find "cmd.c32" useful (search the wiki). For chainloading (for instance, to another partition) see http://www.syslinux.org/wiki/index.php/Chain.c32 . See also http://www.syslinux.org/wiki/index.php/Config for all the basic directives (these directives are valid even without [vesa]menu.c32).> > When installing, I miss error checking (or is it there and I just did it > perfect?) > > ... and those are my first impressions ;-) >There are more than 100 pages in the wiki, in addition to the official documents included in the official archives (in kernel.org). Regards, Ady.> > _______________________________________________ > Syslinux mailing list > Submissions to Syslinux at zytor.com > Unsubscribe or set options at: > http://www.zytor.com/mailman/listinfo/syslinux >
On 02/01/2015 10:27 AM, Ady via Syslinux wrote:> FWIW (this info can be found elsewhere too): _ "SYSLINUX" refers the > install the bootloader files on the adequate boot area (see ...Ok thanks, this also would be good information 'up front'. I can only comment on how it could be better for a beginner, not in what is actually available if you know where to look.> http://www.syslinux.org/wiki/index.php/Install ).I never found that before, I see it's linked under 'Permanent link' which isn't much of a clue.>> The "active" partition is a part of how a (MBR) partition table >> (usually) works together with the MBR's boot code. There is (enough) >> information about such issues in the official Syslinux wiki and >> elsewhere (Distros' wiki pages, wikipedia, blogs, forums...). The >> Syslinux wiki also includes information about several alternative boot >> code for the MBR.Sure. It's just that on HHD LILO doesn't need it at all so I forgot all about it. As I said, perhaps there could be a warning, just for guys like me who forgot. Or maybe we should just wake up ;-)> >> The Simple Menu System is not an exclusive part of the EXTLINUX >> bootloader (or exclusive to any one Syslinux variant), so it would not >> be the adequate place for such info. Internal links, wiki categories >> and the "search" feature in the official Syslinux wiki are available, >> together with official documentation published in several formats (the >> latter is not always up-to-date).Ok, but surely one sentence to tell us to include 'libutil.c32'? Or some link to more information? I had no idea this was something external.> > Syslinux configuration is based on LABELs, so there is a slight > difference when comparing to LILO.Yes, the double meaning of the word is confusing with LILO too.> Please keep in mind that as of version 6.03, SYSLINUX can only find > files (e.g. kernel, initrd...) located in the same volume where the > bootloader is installed.Yes, LILO is more powerful in that department.> > There are more than 100 pages in the wiki, in addition to the official > documents included in the official archives (in kernel.org).And thanks for the extra links. I will read it all eventually.