rspec users - Jan 2009 - Time for seperate cucumber mailing list?

Because traffic is increasing
Because cucumber really is a seperate mature topic now.
Because rspec overlap is getting smaller (relatively)

WDYT

Andrew
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My thoughts:
On 17 Jan 2009, at 04:18, Andrew Premdas wrote:
> Because traffic is increasing
I don''t mind, I would most likely still get both lists into my inbox  
anyway
> Because cucumber really is a seperate mature topic now.
Good point. Can any newbies to the scene comment if this is confusing?
> Because rspec overlap is getting smaller (relatively)
Meh. I don''t know about that. These are two tools I use every day to  
drive out changes to my code. I''m still learning when is the right  
time to use each one, and it varies a lot, so for me there''s still  
significant overlap in terms of the people I want to share ideas with.

Matt Wynne
http://blog.mattwynne.net
http://www.songkick.com

>> Because traffic is increasing
That''s a bad reason to split a list.
>> Because cucumber really is a seperate mature topic now.
>
> Good point. Can any newbies to the scene comment if this is confusing?
It is mature.
But is it separate?
>> Because rspec overlap is getting smaller (relatively)
>
> Meh. I don''t know about that. These are two tools I use every day
to
> drive out changes to my code. I''m still learning when is the right
time
> to use each one, and it varies a lot, so for me there''s still  
> significant overlap in terms of the people I want to share ideas with.
Most interesting (imho) discussions on this list are about the larger picture.
"Individuals and interaction over process and tools"
splitting a mailing list reduces interaction ;)
And isn''t it wonderful how a question about regexps triggers a team
to standardize their language? Too bad if you miss that because the thread
was on the other mailling list...

I skip the Rails questions, mostly; but questions about too often needing
"Given I am logged in as XYZ with roles A B C"
contribute to discussions about GivenScenario and nested steps, i.e.
helps driving the direction of our tools.
(meaning that I could argue that rails related stuff should go to its
own mailing list, but that I will not argue that; use delete-thread
in your favorite mail progam instead.)

I''d rather see people using topics like
 [Rails] my models and viewers are out of control!
 [Cucumber] I can not heckle the pickles
 [spec] it should do
to allow people to filter automagically what they are not interested in.
A little bit of discipline that should come easily when you wonder the
entire day about the best specs and stories, and variable names, no?

Bye,
Kero.

___
How can I change the world if I can''t even change myself?
  -- Faithless, Salva Mea

Matt Wynne wrote:
> My thoughts:
> On 17 Jan 2009, at 04:18, Andrew Premdas wrote:
>
>> Because traffic is increasing
>
> I don''t mind, I would most likely still get both lists into my
inbox
> anyway
>
>> Because cucumber really is a seperate mature topic now.
>
> Good point. Can any newbies to the scene comment if this is confusing?
>
>> Because rspec overlap is getting smaller (relatively)
>
> Meh. I don''t know about that. These are two tools I use every day
to
> drive out changes to my code. I''m still learning when is the right
> time to use each one, and it varies a lot, so for me there''s still
> significant overlap in terms of the people I want to share ideas with.
>
> Matt Wynne
> http://blog.mattwynne.net
> http://www.songkick.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> rspec-users mailing list
> rspec-users at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
>
OK, I''ll comment. I very much a newby. To me, the two - cuke and rspec
-
go together. I''m learning them together. It is critical that I 
understand their interaction. It''s not a big deal if the topics 
separate, but I enjoy that they''re together.

Tom

-- 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom Cloyd, MS MA, LMHC - Private practice Psychotherapist
Bellingham, Washington, U.S.A: (360) 920-1226
<< tc at tomcloyd.com >> (email)
<< TomCloyd.com >> (website) 
<< sleightmind.wordpress.com >> (mental health weblog)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 2:21 PM, Kero van Gelder <kero at chello.nl>
wrote:
> >> Because traffic is increasing
>
> That''s a bad reason to split a list.
>
> >> Because cucumber really is a seperate mature topic now.
> >
> > Good point. Can any newbies to the scene comment if this is confusing?
>
> It is mature.
> But is it separate?
>
> >> Because rspec overlap is getting smaller (relatively)
> >
> > Meh. I don''t know about that. These are two tools I use every
day to
> > drive out changes to my code. I''m still learning when is the
right time
> > to use each one, and it varies a lot, so for me there''s still
> > significant overlap in terms of the people I want to share ideas with.
>
> Most interesting (imho) discussions on this list are about the larger
> picture.
> "Individuals and interaction over process and tools"
> splitting a mailing list reduces interaction ;)
> And isn''t it wonderful how a question about regexps triggers a
team
> to standardize their language? Too bad if you miss that because the thread
> was on the other mailling list...
>
> I skip the Rails questions, mostly; but questions about too often needing
> "Given I am logged in as XYZ with roles A B C"
> contribute to discussions about GivenScenario and nested steps, i.e.
> helps driving the direction of our tools.
> (meaning that I could argue that rails related stuff should go to its
> own mailing list, but that I will not argue that; use delete-thread
> in your favorite mail progam instead.)
>
> I''d rather see people using topics like
>  [Rails] my models and viewers are out of control!
>  [Cucumber] I can not heckle the pickles
>  [spec] it should do
> to allow people to filter automagically what they are not interested in.
> A little bit of discipline that should come easily when you wonder the
> entire day about the best specs and stories, and variable names, no?
>
Excellent suggestion, I endorse this idea.

Please start prefixing your questions:

[RSpec]
[Cucumber]
[Webrat] (Webrat also has a separate mailing list)
[Rails] (Rails has tons of other forums too - please only ask here if
it''s
RSpec or Cucumber related)
[BDD]
[OT] (Off topic)
etc...

or if your post is about several topics, for example:

[Cucumber,Ruby]
[RSpec,Rails]

etc...

I agree it''s better to keep everything on this list to keep the big
picture.

Aslak

>
> Bye,
> Kero.
>
> ___
> How can I change the world if I can''t even change myself?
>  -- Faithless, Salva Mea
> _______________________________________________
> rspec-users mailing list
> rspec-users at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
>


-- 
Aslak (::)
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On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 7:11 AM, aslak hellesoy <aslak.hellesoy at
gmail.com>wrote:
> Please start prefixing your questions:
>
> [RSpec]
> [Cucumber]
> [Webrat] (Webrat also has a separate mailing list)
> [Rails] (Rails has tons of other forums too - please only ask here if
it''s
> RSpec or Cucumber related)
> [BDD]
> [OT] (Off topic)
> etc...
>
> or if your post is about several topics, for example:
>
> [Cucumber,Ruby]
> [RSpec,Rails]
>
A noble idea, but it''s not going to happen.

Posts on this list are on two different topics. A month or so ago before I
started using Cucumber, I was deleting most Cucumber messages unread. Lists
have topics for reasons, and one of them is to tame information by
classifying it and being able to ignore what you want.

I don''t see any *disadvantage* in having two lists.

///ark
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On 17 Jan 2009, at 19:20, Mark Wilden wrote:
> A noble idea, but it''s not going to happen.
Oh yes it is...


etc.

;)

Matt Wynne
http://blog.mattwynne.net
http://www.songkick.com

2009/1/17 Kero van Gelder <kero at chello.nl>
> >> Because traffic is increasing
>
> That''s a bad reason to split a list.
>
> >> Because cucumber really is a seperate mature topic now.
> >
> > Good point. Can any newbies to the scene comment if this is confusing?
>
> It is mature.
> But is it separate?
>
It is seperate because you can do BDD with Cucumber without using RSpec at
all. The reason that Cucumber is discussed on a RSpec mailing list is purely
historical.

> Most interesting (imho) discussions on this list are about the larger
> picture.
> "Individuals and interaction over process and tools"
> splitting a mailing list reduces interaction ;)
> And isn''t it wonderful how a question about regexps triggers a
team
> to standardize their language? Too bad if you miss that because the thread
> was on the other mailling list...

You can subscribe to mutliple lists. Having lots of posts about mocking
objects in controller specs is going to make it harder to find your
interesting BDD discussions.

>
> I skip the Rails questions, mostly; but questions about too often needing
> "Given I am logged in as XYZ with roles A B C"
> contribute to discussions about GivenScenario and nested steps, i.e.
> helps driving the direction of our tools.
> (meaning that I could argue that rails related stuff should go to its
> own mailing list, but that I will not argue that; use delete-thread
> in your favorite mail progam instead.)

Rails related stuff has its own mailing list it has 17,000 members and I
have 800 messages on it since a last looked at it! I certainly wouldn''t
want
them all here
>
> I''d rather see people using topics like
>  [Rails] my models and viewers are out of control!
>  [Cucumber] I can not heckle the pickles
>  [spec] it should do
> to allow people to filter automagically what they are not interested in.
> A little bit of discipline that should come easily when you wonder the
> entire day about the best specs and stories, and variable names, no?
>
This is an excellent idea. But isn''t it also indicative of the fact
that
this mailing list is being used to discuss a wide range of topics that have
little to do with RSpec.
>
> Bye,
> Kero.

Thankyou for your input

Andrew
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2009/1/17 Matt Wynne <matt at mattwynne.net>
> My thoughts:
> On 17 Jan 2009, at 04:18, Andrew Premdas wrote:
>
>  Because traffic is increasing
>>
>
> I don''t mind, I would most likely still get both lists into my
inbox anyway
>
>  Because cucumber really is a seperate mature topic now.
>>
>
> Good point. Can any newbies to the scene comment if this is confusing?
>
>  Because rspec overlap is getting smaller (relatively)
>>
>
> Meh. I don''t know about that. These are two tools I use every day
to drive
> out changes to my code. I''m still learning when is the right time
to use
> each one, and it varies a lot, so for me there''s still significant
overlap
> in terms of the people I want to share ideas with.

You may use both every day, I know I do, but this doesn''t mean that the
overlap is smaller. RSpec may be used by most of us to implement cucumber
steps, but in many ways RSpec is now only as important (for Cucumber) as say
Webrat.
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I do think there should be two separate lists, since RSpec and Cucumber are
two separate topics. I''ve thought so ever since Cucumber began to
generate
significant interest. I don''t think it''s giving Cucumber its
due to have its
users post to a list called ''rspec-users''.

Could someone explain why two lists would be a bad idea? On the other hand,
if this list should be for RSpec and Cucumber, shouldn''t it be renamed?

///ark
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Mark Wilden wrote:
> Could someone explain why two lists would be a bad idea? On the other 
> hand, if this list should be for RSpec and Cucumber, shouldn''t it
be renamed?

I think that bad and good does not really apply to this sort of thing. 
Perhaps comfortable and uncomfortable more closely describes the 
divergence of emotion when a group is faced with a possibility of 
change.

My only concern is that if a cucumber mailing-list does split from the 
rspec list that access to it be made available through ruby-forum.com. 
I have given up trying to keep up with the volume of mail generated by 
the ruby-on-rails list and the ruby list and the rspec list. Instead I 
view their forums every few hours and tag for email notification those 
topics in which I have a specific interest.
-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

On 18 jan 2009, at 18:49, Mark Wilden wrote:
> Could someone explain why two lists would be a bad idea? On the  
> other hand, if this list should be for RSpec and Cucumber,
shouldn''t
> it be renamed?
How''bout splitting this list up into a more "beginners"
oriented
version, and a discussion one?
This list is called rspec-users, so let''s let this be the starting  
point of questions like "I can''t get rspec/cucumber/whatyouhaving
to
work", and have a rspec-discussion list with the more high level/BDD- 
oriented discussions?

just my 2cts,
bartz

This is not a high-volume list at all.  I don''t see what all the fuss
is about.  If you don''t want to see cucumber or rspec or mock, add
that to your filter and have it sent straight to the trash.  No sense
in complicating things when there isn''t an actual problem.

Pat

Bart Zonneveld wrote:
> 
> How''bout splitting this list up into a more "beginners"
oriented
> version, and a discussion one?
> This list is called rspec-users, so let''s let this be the starting
> point of questions like "I can''t get
rspec/cucumber/whatyouhaving to
> work", and have a rspec-discussion list with the more high level/BDD-
> oriented discussions?
My own experience with this sort of bifurcation has not been happy. 
Putting all levels of experience together seems to provide a richer and 
more satisfactory experience for all, in most cases.  Where the audience 
spans a vast range of experience then a seemingly innocuous how-to 
question like, How do I get this regexp to work in cucumber, may lead 
into a more fulsome examination of not only how, but why and when, you 
use regexp in testing at all and why and when you should not. The real 
value of experience lies in knowing what questions you should be asking 
and not in just parroting back answers to the problem posed.  That sort 
of expansiveness, of looking at the underlying issues, tends to 
disappear in nube/old-hand lists.

If a mailing list is divided arbitrarily along knowledge lines then one 
has created an additional task of evaluating which list to post on.  If 
the list is to be divided at all, and I am not convinced that there 
exists any pressing reason to do so, then I believe that it should be 
fractured along the subject matter rather than experience levels.

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Pat Maddox <pergesu at gmail.com> wrote:
> This is not a high-volume list at all.  I don''t see what all the
fuss
> is about.  If you don''t want to see cucumber or rspec or mock, add
> that to your filter and have it sent straight to the trash.  No sense
> in complicating things when there isn''t an actual problem.
>
Agree - and since our appeal to prefix posts seems to be followed it should
be even easier.

The problem with several lists for related topics is fragmented
communication. People who are not subscribed to all lists would not get the
opportunity to chip in with valuable comments (or learn unexpected useful
things).

Aslak

>
> Pat
> _______________________________________________
> rspec-users mailing list
> rspec-users at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
>


-- 
Aslak (::)
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James Byrne wrote:
> Bart Zonneveld wrote:
>
>   
>> How''bout splitting this list up into a more
"beginners" oriented
>> version, and a discussion one?
>> This list is called rspec-users, so let''s let this be the
starting
>> point of questions like "I can''t get
rspec/cucumber/whatyouhaving to
>> work", and have a rspec-discussion list with the more high
level/BDD-
>> oriented discussions?
>>     
>
> My own experience with this sort of bifurcation has not been happy. 
> Putting all levels of experience together seems to provide a richer and 
> more satisfactory experience for all, in most cases.  Where the audience 
> spans a vast range of experience then a seemingly innocuous how-to 
> question like, How do I get this regexp to work in cucumber, may lead 
> into a more fulsome examination of not only how, but why and when, you 
> use regexp in testing at all and why and when you should not. The real 
> value of experience lies in knowing what questions you should be asking 
> and not in just parroting back answers to the problem posed.  That sort 
> of expansiveness, of looking at the underlying issues, tends to 
> disappear in nube/old-hand lists.
>
> If a mailing list is divided arbitrarily along knowledge lines then one 
> has created an additional task of evaluating which list to post on.  If 
> the list is to be divided at all, and I am not convinced that there 
> exists any pressing reason to do so, then I believe that it should be 
> fractured along the subject matter rather than experience levels.
>
>   
James, I strongly agree with your point of view. Consider: as a Ruby 
programming beginner, and one about to write my first Cucumber feature 
(with RSpec launching to follow soon after), I monitor the Ruby-Talk 
discussion list daily. I manage the volume by having the posted 
displayed in threaded form. I filter all traffic for the list as a whole 
to its own folder. When an thread of interest to me comes up, I flag it, 
and come back to it later. Yesterday, there were a total of 6 new 
threads. Today, so far, there have been two. All other traffic has gone 
to other threads, started earlier, and I''ve already marked them as 
interesting to me or not. Problem solved.

So, may I humbly suggest that people simply use better the email 
management tools they already have at their disposal?

I do NOT want to split the community here at RSpec/Cucumber into 
fragments. I''d learn less, and I wouldn''t have as good a
contact with
the natural diversity that''s here. That diversity is interesting, 
entertaining, and rather often education to me, and most likely to 
others as well.

As you said, this is simply not a high volume list. I don''t think we 
really have a problem here.
t.

-- 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom Cloyd, MS MA, LMHC - Private practice Psychotherapist
Bellingham, Washington, U.S.A: (360) 920-1226
<< tc at tomcloyd.com >> (email)
<< TomCloyd.com >> (website) 
<< sleightmind.wordpress.com >> (mental health weblog)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~