Ted, et. al.: Re: "Data is" vs "data are" ... Heh heh! "This is the kind of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put." (Attributed to Churchill in one form or another, likely wrongly.) See here for some semi-authoritative dicussion: http://www.onlinegrammar.com.au/top-10-grammar-myths-data-is-plural-so-must-take-a-plural-verb/ Cheers, Bert Bert Gunter "The trouble with having an open mind is that people keep coming along and sticking things into it." -- Opus (aka Berkeley Breathed in his "Bloom County" comic strip ) On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 3:44 PM, Ted Harding <ted.harding at wlandres.net> wrote:> On Mon, 2018-06-25 at 09:46 +1200, Rolf Turner wrote: > > Does/should one say "the degrees of freedom is defined to be" or "the > > degrees of freedom are defined to be"? > > > > Although value of "degrees of freedom" is a single number, the first > > formulation sounds very odd to my ear. > > > > I would like to call upon the collective wisdom of the R community to > > help me decide. > > > > Thanks, and my apologies for the off-topic post. > > > > cheers, > > Rolf Turner > > Interesting question, Rolf! > >From my point of view. I see "degrees of freedon" as a plural noun, > because of "degrees". But in some cases, we have only 1 degree of > freedon. Then the degrees of freedon is 1. > > But we do not say, in that case, "the degree of freedom is defined > to be", or the degree of freedom are 1" > > Nor would we say "The degrees of freedom are 19".! > > So I thonk that the solution is to encapsulate the term within > aingle quotes, so that it becomes a singular entity. Thus: > > The 'degrees of freedom' is defined to be ... "; and > The 'degrees of freedom' is 1. > Or > The degrees of freedom' is 19. > > This is not the same issue as (one of my prime hates) saying > "the data is srored in the dataframe ... ". "Data" is a > plural noun (ainguler "datum"), and I would insist on > "the data are stored ... ". The French use "une donnee" and > "les donnees"; the Germans use "ein Datum", "der Daten"; > so they know what they're doing! English-speakers mostly do not" > > Best wishes to all, > Ted. > > ______________________________________________ > R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/ > posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. >[[alternative HTML version deleted]]
On 06/24/2018 08:03 PM, Bert Gunter wrote:> Ted, et. al.: > > Re: "Data is" vs "data are" ... Heh heh! > > "This is the kind of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put." > (Attributed to Churchill in one form or another, likely wrongly.) > > See here for some semi-authoritative dicussion: > > http://www.onlinegrammar.com.au/top-10-grammar-myths-data-is-plural-so-must-take-a-plural-verb/Hmmm. "semi-authoritative or not", the 1980 Edition of the Oxford American dictionary says: "data (day-ta) n. pl. facts or information ... 'Data' should not be used with a singular verb, as in 'the data is inconclusive'; it is by origin a Latin plural (the singular is 'datum') and should be used with a plural verb. ..." Interesting how Latin seemed to have changed in the past 40 or so years. ---JRG John R. Gleason> > Cheers, > Bert > > > > Bert Gunter > > "The trouble with having an open mind is that people keep coming along and > sticking things into it." > -- Opus (aka Berkeley Breathed in his "Bloom County" comic strip ) > > On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 3:44 PM, Ted Harding <ted.harding at wlandres.net> > wrote: > >> On Mon, 2018-06-25 at 09:46 +1200, Rolf Turner wrote: >>> Does/should one say "the degrees of freedom is defined to be" or "the >>> degrees of freedom are defined to be"? >>> >>> Although value of "degrees of freedom" is a single number, the first >>> formulation sounds very odd to my ear. >>> >>> I would like to call upon the collective wisdom of the R community to >>> help me decide. >>> >>> Thanks, and my apologies for the off-topic post. >>> >>> cheers, >>> Rolf Turner >> >> Interesting question, Rolf! >> >From my point of view. I see "degrees of freedon" as a plural noun, >> because of "degrees". But in some cases, we have only 1 degree of >> freedon. Then the degrees of freedon is 1. >> >> But we do not say, in that case, "the degree of freedom is defined >> to be", or the degree of freedom are 1" >> >> Nor would we say "The degrees of freedom are 19".! >> >> So I thonk that the solution is to encapsulate the term within >> aingle quotes, so that it becomes a singular entity. Thus: >> >> The 'degrees of freedom' is defined to be ... "; and >> The 'degrees of freedom' is 1. >> Or >> The degrees of freedom' is 19. >> >> This is not the same issue as (one of my prime hates) saying >> "the data is srored in the dataframe ... ". "Data" is a >> plural noun (ainguler "datum"), and I would insist on >> "the data are stored ... ". The French use "une donnee" and >> "les donnees"; the Germans use "ein Datum", "der Daten"; >> so they know what they're doing! English-speakers mostly do not" >> >> Best wishes to all, >> Ted. >> >> ______________________________________________ >> R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see >> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help >> PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/ >> posting-guide.html >> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. >> > > [[alternative HTML version deleted]] > > ______________________________________________ > R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. >
On 25/06/18 12:03, Bert Gunter wrote:> Ted, et. al.: > > Re: "Data is" vs "data are" ... Heh heh! > > "This is the kind of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put." > (Attributed to Churchill in one form or another, likely wrongly.) > > See here for some semi-authoritative dicussion: > > http://www.onlinegrammar.com.au/top-10-grammar-myths-data-is-plural-so-must-take-a-plural-verb/I beg to differ. "The data was out of date" sounds just plain stupid to my sensitive ears. It's rather like using the phrase "begs the question" to mean "raises the question" or "invites the question" rather than to carry its *correct* meaning of "assumes what is to be proved". The fact that the phrase is almost always used in its *incorrect* sense these days, and almost never in its *correct* sense, does not diminish the fact that those who use it incorrectly are ignorant scumbags! The language is weakened and diminished by the encroachment of incorrect usage. cheers, Rolf -- Technical Editor ANZJS Department of Statistics University of Auckland Phone: +64-9-373-7599 ext. 88276
No it isn't. Your stature is diminished by hateful behaviour. Cheers, Mike On Mon, 25 Jun 2018, 07:26 Rolf Turner, <r.turner at auckland.ac.nz> wrote:> On 25/06/18 12:03, Bert Gunter wrote: > > Ted, et. al.: > > > > Re: "Data is" vs "data are" ... Heh heh! > > > > "This is the kind of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put." > > (Attributed to Churchill in one form or another, likely wrongly.) > > > > See here for some semi-authoritative dicussion: > > > > > http://www.onlinegrammar.com.au/top-10-grammar-myths-data-is-plural-so-must-take-a-plural-verb/ > > I beg to differ. "The data was out of date" sounds just plain stupid to > my sensitive ears. > > It's rather like using the phrase "begs the question" to mean "raises > the question" or "invites the question" rather than to carry its > *correct* meaning of "assumes what is to be proved". The fact that the > phrase is almost always used in its *incorrect* sense these days, and > almost never in its *correct* sense, does not diminish the fact that > those who use it incorrectly are ignorant scumbags! The language is > weakened and diminished by the encroachment of incorrect usage. > > > > cheers, > > Rolf > > > -- > Technical Editor ANZJS > Department of Statistics > University of Auckland > Phone: +64-9-373-7599 ext. 88276 > > ______________________________________________ > R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide > http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. >-- Dr. Michael Sumner Software and Database Engineer Australian Antarctic Division 203 Channel Highway Kingston Tasmania 7050 Australia [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 20:16:24 -0400 JRG <loesljrg at accucom.net> wrote:> On 06/24/2018 08:03 PM, Bert Gunter wrote: > > Ted, et. al.: > > > > Re: "Data is" vs "data are" ... Heh heh! > > > > "This is the kind of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put." > > (Attributed to Churchill in one form or another, likely wrongly.) > > > > See here for some semi-authoritative dicussion: > > > > http://www.onlinegrammar.com.au/top-10-grammar-myths-data-is-plural-so-must-take-a-plural-verb/ > > > Hmmm. "semi-authoritative or not", the 1980 Edition of the Oxford > American dictionary says: > > "data (day-ta) n. pl. facts or information ... 'Data' should not be > used with a singular verb, as in 'the data is inconclusive'; it is by > origin a Latin plural (the singular is 'datum') and should be used > with a plural verb. ..." > > > Interesting how Latin seemed to have changed in the past 40 or so > years. >In fact, "the data are/is inconclusive" is shorthand for a longer sentence. Data are merely observations. It is only after they are made and summarized that a conclusion might be reached. In which case it was the analysis of the data that was inconclusive. Since many analyses of a single data set can be conducted and they are not necessarily all going to be inconclusive, it really never was the data that were inconclusive. JWDoughetry
How about "Physics / politics / economics are my favoruite subject"?
Might be fun to see how long we could make that list. It seems to be
a fact of life that it's impossible to make a (useful) language that
has totally consistent grammar.
Something else to consider:I knew an English teacher who frowned on
what Rolf wrote (to quote) "...almost never .. " which *should be*
"... hardly ever ... "
How boring it would be if we all agreed. :-)
On Mon, 25-Jun-2018 at 12:16PM +1200, Rolf Turner wrote:
|> On 25/06/18 12:03, Bert Gunter wrote:
|> >Ted, et. al.:
|> >
|> >Re: "Data is" vs "data are" ... Heh heh!
|> >
|> >"This is the kind of arrant pedantry up with which I will not
put."
|> >(Attributed to Churchill in one form or another, likely wrongly.)
|> >
|> >See here for some semi-authoritative dicussion:
|> >
|>
>http://www.onlinegrammar.com.au/top-10-grammar-myths-data-is-plural-so-must-take-a-plural-verb/
|>
|> I beg to differ. "The data was out of date" sounds just plain
|> stupid to my sensitive ears.
|>
|> It's rather like using the phrase "begs the question" to
mean
|> "raises the question" or "invites the question" rather
than to
|> carry its *correct* meaning of "assumes what is to be proved".
The
|> fact that the phrase is almost always used in its *incorrect* sense
|> these days, and almost never in its *correct* sense, does not
|> diminish the fact that those who use it incorrectly are ignorant
|> scumbags! The language is weakened and diminished by the
|> encroachment of incorrect usage.
|>
|> cheers,
|>
|> Rolf
|>
|>
|> --
|> Technical Editor ANZJS
|> Department of Statistics
|> University of Auckland
|> Phone: +64-9-373-7599 ext. 88276
|>
|> ______________________________________________
|> R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
|> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
|> PLEASE do read the posting guide
http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
|> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
--
~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.
___ Patrick Connolly
{~._.~} Great minds discuss ideas
_( Y )_ Average minds discuss events
(:_~*~_:) Small minds discuss people
(_)-(_) ..... Eleanor Roosevelt
~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.