The R signon banner includes this statement:
Natural language support but running in an English locale
Should that not say 'National' instead of 'Natural'?
Meaning that LOCALE support is enabled, not that the interface understands
human language?
Please ignore this and forgive me if this is an inappropriate post. I am a
N00B in R.
[[alternative HTML version deleted]]
On 31/08/2017 5:38 PM, Paul McQuesten wrote:> The R signon banner includes this statement: > Natural language support but running in an English locale > > Should that not say 'National' instead of 'Natural'? > Meaning that LOCALE support is enabled, not that the interface understands > human language? >No, "natural language" refers to human languages, but it doesn't imply that R understands them. NLS just means that messages may be presented in (or translated to) other human languages in an appropriate context. For example, you can start R on most platforms from the console using LANGUAGE=de R and instead of the start message you saw, you'll see R ist freie Software und kommt OHNE JEGLICHE GARANTIE. Sie sind eingeladen, es unter bestimmten Bedingungen weiter zu verbreiten. Tippen Sie 'license()' or 'licence()' f?r Details dazu. and so on.> Please ignore this and forgive me if this is an inappropriate post. I am a > N00B in R.I don't think it is inappropriate. Duncan Murdoch
Actually, I do agree with you about Microsoft. But they have so many users that their terminology should not be ignored. Here are a few more views: https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/ssw_aix_71/com.ibm.aix.performance/natl_lang_supp_locale_speed.htm https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E23824_01/html/E26033/glmbx.html http://support.sas.com/documentation/cdl/en/nlsref/69741/HTML/default/viewer.htm#n1n9bwctsthuqbn1xgipyw5xwujl.htm https://docs.intersystems.com/latest/csp/docbook/DocBook.UI.Page.cls?KEY=GSA_config_nls https://sites.ualberta.ca/dept/chemeng/AIX-43/share/man/info/C/a_doc_lib/aixprggd/genprogc/nls.htm http://scc.ustc.edu.cn/zlsc/tc4600/intel/2017.0.098/compiler_f/common/core/GUID-1AEC889E-98A7-4A7D-91B3-865C476F603D.html It does appear, however, that what I call 'National Language' is often referred to as 'Native Language'. And the 'National Language' terminology is said to not be used consistently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_language I do still feel, however, that claiming 'Natural Language' support in R sets expectations of new users overly high. Thank you for spending so much time on such a minor nit. Regards On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 5:45 PM, Duncan Murdoch <murdoch.duncan at gmail.com> wrote:> On 31/08/2017 6:37 PM, Paul McQuesten wrote: > >> Thanks, Duncan. But if it is not inappropriate, I feel empowered to argue. >> >> According to this definition, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ >> Natural_language: >> In neuropsychology, linguistics and the philosophy of language, a >> natural language or ordinary language is any language that has evolved >> naturally in humans ... >> >> Thus this banner statement may appear over-claiming to a significant >> fraction of R users. >> >> It seems that LOCALE is called 'National language' support in other >> software systems. >> Eg: https://www.microsoft.com/resources/msdn/goglobal/default.mspx >> > > I wouldn't take Microsoft as an authority on this (or much of anything). > They really are amazingly incompetent, considering how much money they earn. > > Duncan Murdoch > > >> And, yes, this is a low priority issue. All of you have better things to >> do. >> >> R is an extremely powerful and comprehensive software system. >> Thank you all for that. >> And I would like to clean one gnat from the windshield. >> >> I just wax pedantic at times. >> >> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 5:13 PM, Duncan Murdoch <murdoch.duncan at gmail.com >> <mailto:murdoch.duncan at gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> On 31/08/2017 5:38 PM, Paul McQuesten wrote: >> >> The R signon banner includes this statement: >> Natural language support but running in an English locale >> >> Should that not say 'National' instead of 'Natural'? >> Meaning that LOCALE support is enabled, not that the interface >> understands >> human language? >> >> >> No, "natural language" refers to human languages, but it doesn't >> imply that R understands them. NLS just means that messages may be >> presented in (or translated to) other human languages in an >> appropriate context. >> >> For example, you can start R on most platforms from the console using >> >> LANGUAGE=de R >> >> and instead of the start message you saw, you'll see >> >> R ist freie Software und kommt OHNE JEGLICHE GARANTIE. >> Sie sind eingeladen, es unter bestimmten Bedingungen weiter zu >> verbreiten. >> Tippen Sie 'license()' or 'licence()' f?r Details dazu. >> >> and so on. >> >> Please ignore this and forgive me if this is an inappropriate >> post. I am a >> N00B in R. >> >> >> I don't think it is inappropriate. >> >> Duncan Murdoch >> >> >> >[[alternative HTML version deleted]]
>>>>> Paul McQuesten <mcquesten at gmail.com> >>>>> on Thu, 31 Aug 2017 18:48:12 -0500 writes:> Actually, I do agree with you about Microsoft. > But they have so many users that their terminology should not be ignored. > Here are a few more views: > https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/ssw_aix_71/com.ibm.aix.performance/natl_lang_supp_locale_speed.htm > https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E23824_01/html/E26033/glmbx.html > http://support.sas.com/documentation/cdl/en/nlsref/69741/HTML/default/viewer.htm#n1n9bwctsthuqbn1xgipyw5xwujl.htm > https://docs.intersystems.com/latest/csp/docbook/DocBook.UI.Page.cls?KEY=GSA_config_nls > https://sites.ualberta.ca/dept/chemeng/AIX-43/share/man/info/C/a_doc_lib/aixprggd/genprogc/nls.htm > http://scc.ustc.edu.cn/zlsc/tc4600/intel/2017.0.098/compiler_f/common/core/GUID-1AEC889E-98A7-4A7D-91B3-865C476F603D.html > It does appear, however, that what I call 'National Language' is often > referred to as 'Native Language'. And the 'National Language' terminology > is said to not be used consistently: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_language > I do still feel, however, that claiming 'Natural Language' support in R > sets expectations of new users overly high. > Thank you for spending so much time on such a minor nit. continuing the nits and gnats : I think I now understand what you mean. From the little I understand about English intricacies and with my not fully developed gut feeling of good English (which I rarely speak but sometimes appreciate when reading / listening), I would indeed prefer 'Native Language' to 'Natural Language' Martin Maechler ETH Zurich > Regards > On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 5:45 PM, Duncan Murdoch <murdoch.duncan at gmail.com> > wrote: >> On 31/08/2017 6:37 PM, Paul McQuesten wrote: >> >>> Thanks, Duncan. But if it is not inappropriate, I feel empowered to argue. >>> >>> According to this definition, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ >>> Natural_language: >>> In neuropsychology, linguistics and the philosophy of language, a >>> natural language or ordinary language is any language that has evolved >>> naturally in humans ... >>> >>> Thus this banner statement may appear over-claiming to a significant >>> fraction of R users. >>> >>> It seems that LOCALE is called 'National language' support in other >>> software systems. >>> Eg: https://www.microsoft.com/resources/msdn/goglobal/default.mspx >>> >> >> I wouldn't take Microsoft as an authority on this (or much of anything). >> They really are amazingly incompetent, considering how much money they earn. >> >> Duncan Murdoch >> >> >>> And, yes, this is a low priority issue. All of you have better things to >>> do. >>> >>> R is an extremely powerful and comprehensive software system. >>> Thank you all for that. >>> And I would like to clean one gnat from the windshield. >>> >>> I just wax pedantic at times. >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 5:13 PM, Duncan Murdoch <murdoch.duncan at gmail.com >>> <mailto:murdoch.duncan at gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> On 31/08/2017 5:38 PM, Paul McQuesten wrote: >>> >>> The R signon banner includes this statement: >>> Natural language support but running in an English locale >>> >>> Should that not say 'National' instead of 'Natural'? >>> Meaning that LOCALE support is enabled, not that the interface >>> understands >>> human language? >>> >>> >>> No, "natural language" refers to human languages, but it doesn't >>> imply that R understands them. NLS just means that messages may be >>> presented in (or translated to) other human languages in an >>> appropriate context. >>> >>> For example, you can start R on most platforms from the console using >>> >>> LANGUAGE=de R >>> >>> and instead of the start message you saw, you'll see >>> >>> R ist freie Software und kommt OHNE JEGLICHE GARANTIE. >>> Sie sind eingeladen, es unter bestimmten Bedingungen weiter zu >>> verbreiten. >>> Tippen Sie 'license()' or 'licence()' f?r Details dazu. >>> >>> and so on. >>> >>> Please ignore this and forgive me if this is an inappropriate >>> post. I am a >>> N00B in R. >>> >>> >>> I don't think it is inappropriate. >>> >>> Duncan Murdoch