R devel - Nov 2000 - Graphics-Device-Size vs. Window-Size: R design flaw

Dear Prof. Brian Ripley,

thank you for answering.
> Can we step back a bit?  I think we could probably do better
> than we do.
> No one envisaged people resizing graphics windows when the system was
> designed (as far as I can see), and locking aspect ratios (which
> S-PLUS now does) when re-sizing looks sensible to me.  We
> might seriously
> want to consider scrollable canvases on graphics devices, too.
>
> I'm afraid I don't fully grasp Jens' points, in part because he
is
> coming from a different usage experience (mainly Windows, I believe)
> than I am.  And now (the run up to 1.2.0) is not a good time to think
> about such changes.  But if Jens could put together a proposal for the
> wishlist on R-bugs, we can return to it.
I am willing to do that, but let me now explain the problem, which triggered
my conclusions.

BTW, I'm also on linux and under linux I face the same trouble.

I had to optimize a very complex graph which was representing some
underlying data structure.

1) It required DIN-A3 (bigger than screen)
2) It required programming and use of strwidth(), as I needed an automated
way to transform data-to-graph
3) It required interacting based on locator() to change the underlying data
basis and replotting data-to-graph
4) (Thus) It required seeing the whole device during interaction, thus
probably scroll_bars/zooming would not help.
5) It required some fine tuning (text wrapping, font size and other
parameters) ON SCREEN before printing.

E.g. there was text surrounded by boxes, and the text had to fit within
boxes tightly. Relatively to the DIN-A3-device the text was small, but it
had to be that size to get a realistic impression of space needs.

Does my point get clear now?

However, beside this particular problem, I'm convinced that a proper
seperation between device features and window features would be very
usefull.

Regards


Jens


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Hello Ross,

thank you for entering this discussion.
> Every version of Splus I've looked at (I've not seen 2000 yet)
simply
> lied about the device size.  The device remains the size it
> was when it
> was created.  I presume that the rendering code just carries out a
> stretch of coordinates.  If you do the following
>
> 	par("din")
> 	# stretch the window with the mouse
> 	par("din")
>
> you'll see that there is no change.  As far as I could tell,
> the initial
> size of the device is used for ever.
Yes, and for me this behaviour would be great: you create a bigger than
screen device like DIN A3, you can see it at the screen at whatever
windowsize you want and it alway tells the truth about it's real size: DIN
A3. This TRUTH becomes a LIE only, if one considers representation layer and
presentation layer to be the same.
> The results of this are unfortunate when you are relying on having
> equal units in the x and y directions.  Drawing maps or displaying
> the results of some sort of ordination can be badly affected.  Also,
> there can be obviously incorrect drawing of tickmarks and annotation
> (this is usually only apparent for extreme reshaping).
This is where aspect ratio locking would help (for the whole device, not
only for the plot area).
> The philosophy in R is that when a window is resized, the graph should
> be redrawn so that it will appear as it would if it had been created
> in a window with the new size.
This makes it IMPOSSIBLE to work on a device bigger than the screen.
> If we are going to change the graphics, let's please throw the present
> system out completely.
If you are going to change graphics from scratch, PLEASE do use this
opportunity to really seperate representation layer from screen
presentation.

Regards


Jens


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