Puppet users - May 2011 - PC EU feedback: exported resource syntax is too magical, hard to read

http://projects.puppetlabs.com/issues/7612

The exported resources syntax:

    @@user { luke: ensure => present }

Is concise and powerful, but very difficult to read. We should
consider word-based syntax, e.g.:

    export @user { luke: ensure => present }

And taking into account #7605, perhaps:

    export virtual user { luke: ensure => present }

Please comment on the ticket or reply here, whichever you prefer.

Thanks!

r

P.S. This is in response to feedback from my "Improving the Puppet
DSL" session at Puppet Camp EU, 2011.  This ticket isn''t a promise
we
will take action, but we could very much like comment and discussion
from you good people.

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On 05/20/2011 01:24 PM, Randall Hansen wrote:
> http://projects.puppetlabs.com/issues/7612
> 
> The exported resources syntax:
> 
>     @@user { luke: ensure => present }
> 
> Is concise and powerful, but very difficult to read. We should
> consider word-based syntax, e.g.:
> 
>     export @user { luke: ensure => present }
> 
> And taking into account #7605, perhaps:
> 
>     export virtual user { luke: ensure => present }
> 
Yes on both counts. My coworkers have often commented on the cryptic
nature of this construct, and googling for ''puppet @@''
doesn''t return
anything immediately useful. Googling for ''puppet virtual
export'', on
the other hand, does. In fact, the first hit is the documentation on
Exporting and Collecting Resources.

-- 
Russell A Jackson <raj@csub.edu>
Network Analyst
California State University, Bakersfield

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On 20/05/11 22:24, Randall Hansen wrote:
> http://projects.puppetlabs.com/issues/7612
> 
> The exported resources syntax:
> 
>     @@user { luke: ensure => present }
> 
> Is concise and powerful, but very difficult to read. We should
> consider word-based syntax, e.g.:
> 
>     export @user { luke: ensure => present }
> 
> And taking into account #7605, perhaps:
> 
>     export virtual user { luke: ensure => present }
> 
> Please comment on the ticket or reply here, whichever you prefer.
I sincerely hope you''ll keep the old syntax around.

I''m terribly sorry to be negative, but I really don''t like
this kind of
verbosity.

This is a language, and every language has some idioms. IMHO, newcomers
should better read the documentation than trying to infer what the
language does by reading example of it. This feature is an advanced
feature I don''t expect newcomers to grasp in its short or verbose form,
they''ll have to read about it.

One thing I like with the Puppet DSL is that it''s concise, you can
express resources states with the less word possible, yet still be readable.

If you really want to simplify people''s life, make those extra
attributes become metaparameters (but please keep the old syntax):

user { luke: ensure => present, virtual => [boolean] }

That would even allow us to parametrize virtuality/exportability with
the help of an expression (ie selectors, functions, boolean expressions ...)

My $0.02
-- 
Brice Figureau
My Blog: http://www.masterzen.fr/

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I would prefer the verbose form as it definitely is much easier to read.

--
Nathan Clemons
http://www.livemocha.com
The worlds largest online language learning community



On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 1:24 PM, Randall Hansen
<randall@puppetlabs.com>wrote:
> http://projects.puppetlabs.com/issues/7612
>
> The exported resources syntax:
>
>    @@user { luke: ensure => present }
>
> Is concise and powerful, but very difficult to read. We should
> consider word-based syntax, e.g.:
>
>    export @user { luke: ensure => present }
>
> And taking into account #7605, perhaps:
>
>    export virtual user { luke: ensure => present }
>
> Please comment on the ticket or reply here, whichever you prefer.
>
> Thanks!
>
> r
>
> P.S. This is in response to feedback from my "Improving the Puppet
> DSL" session at Puppet Camp EU, 2011.  This ticket isn''t a
promise we
> will take action, but we could very much like comment and discussion
> from you good people.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Puppet Users" group.
> To post to this group, send email to puppet-users@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> puppet-users+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
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>
>
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On 5/21/11 10:42 AM, Brice Figureau wrote:
> If you really want to simplify people''s life, make those extra
> attributes become metaparameters :
>
> user { luke: ensure =>  present, virtual =>  [boolean] }
>
> That would even allow us to parametrize virtuality/exportability with
> the help of an expression (ie selectors, functions, boolean expressions
...)
>
> My $0.02
I think that was worth a lot more that $0.02!
I like that a lot better - virtual and exported are just parameters.

- henrik

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On Sat, May 21, 2011 at 1:42 AM, Brice Figureau <
brice-puppet@daysofwonder.com> wrote:
> On 20/05/11 22:24, Randall Hansen wrote:
> > http://projects.puppetlabs.com/issues/7612
> >
> > The exported resources syntax:
> >
> >     @@user { luke: ensure => present }
> >
> > Is concise and powerful, but very difficult to read. We should
> > consider word-based syntax, e.g.:
> >
> >     export @user { luke: ensure => present }
> >
> > And taking into account #7605, perhaps:
> >
> >     export virtual user { luke: ensure => present }
> >
> > Please comment on the ticket or reply here, whichever you prefer.
>
> I sincerely hope you''ll keep the old syntax around.
>
> I''m terribly sorry to be negative, but I really don''t
like this kind of
> verbosity.
>
> This is a language, and every language has some idioms. IMHO, newcomers
> should better read the documentation than trying to infer what the
> language does by reading example of it. This feature is an advanced
> feature I don''t expect newcomers to grasp in its short or verbose
form,
> they''ll have to read about it.
>
> One thing I like with the Puppet DSL is that it''s concise, you can
> express resources states with the less word possible, yet still be
> readable.
>
> If you really want to simplify people''s life, make those extra
> attributes become metaparameters (but please keep the old syntax):
>
> user { luke: ensure => present, virtual => [boolean] }
>
> That would even allow us to parametrize virtuality/exportability with
> the help of an expression (ie selectors, functions, boolean expressions
> ...)
>
>
++

This would be great. Being able to filter on virtual/export status would be
killer.

-- 
Nigel Kersten
Product, Puppet Labs
@nigelkersten

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Nigel Kersten:
> On Sat, May 21, 2011 at 1:42 AM, Brice Figureau <
> brice-puppet@daysofwonder.com> wrote:
> > If you really want to simplify people''s life, make those
extra
> > attributes become metaparameters (but please keep the old syntax):
> >
> > user { luke: ensure => present, virtual => [boolean] }
> >
> > That would even allow us to parametrize virtuality/exportability with
> > the help of an expression (ie selectors, functions, boolean
expressions
> > ...)
> ++
> 
> This would be great. Being able to filter on virtual/export status would be
> killer.
Oh yes indeed!  I can already think of ways to use this.

-- 
"Man, if everything were object-oriented then rsync
could do this already. Of course, if everything were
object-oriented I''d have a bushy moustache and be
wearing flares, which would suck." -- Sean Neakums

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> If you really want to simplify people''s life, make those extra
> attributes become metaparameters (but please keep the old syntax):
> 
> user { luke: ensure => present, virtual => [boolean] }
> 
> That would even allow us to parametrize virtuality/exportability with
> the help of an expression (ie selectors, functions, boolean expressions
...)
awesome!

+1

~pete
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