opus - Oct 2015 - recommended opus bitrate / opusenc setting for general?

Hey.

I just wondered,... which is the recommended bitrate and further
settings of opusenc (like complexity and framesize) for general music
(e.g. including classical music) to achieve more or less transparency?
Talking about CD level audio (16bit; 44,1 kHz; Stereo)

The only source I could find regarding that was:
http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Opus#Music_encoding_quality

But that seems to imply that transparency is achieved with 256bit...
and "close to transparency" wit 128bit... and then I wonder why one
would need Opus, because I thought that's about the same for
AAC/MP3/Vorbis.


Cheers,
Chris.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature
Size: 5313 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/opus/attachments/20151025/51c9223e/attachment.bin

Well, with stored music files, with close to transparency bitrate, you
don't really need Opus. Now compare it with Vorbis when streaming on a low
bandwidth connection with real-time latency...

2015-10-25 2:01 GMT-02:00 Christoph Anton Mitterer <calestyo at
scientia.net>:
> Hey.
>
> I just wondered,... which is the recommended bitrate and further
> settings of opusenc (like complexity and framesize) for general music
> (e.g. including classical music) to achieve more or less transparency?
> Talking about CD level audio (16bit; 44,1 kHz; Stereo)
>
> The only source I could find regarding that was:
> http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Opus#Music_encoding_quality
>
> But that seems to imply that transparency is achieved with 256bit...
> and "close to transparency" wit 128bit... and then I wonder why
one
> would need Opus, because I thought that's about the same for
> AAC/MP3/Vorbis.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Chris.
> _______________________________________________
> opus mailing list
> opus at xiph.org
> http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/opus
>
>

-- 
Lucas Clemente Vella
lvella at gmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/opus/attachments/20151025/f3821541/attachment.htm

Everything above 96kbps on that table is speculative, as the highest
multi-participant listening testing done was at 96kbps. Here's the
results from that test, if you're curious:

http://listening-test.coresv.net/results.htm

As you can see, at that rate Opus ranged from slightly perceptible to
imperceptible. Also importantly, note how few of the donors were able to
give significant results on most tracks. This makes a 128kbps or higher
test impractical as there would not be enough listeners capable of
hearing a difference. The HydrogenAudio wiki should probably be updated
accordingly.

FWIW I cannot ABX 96kbps Opus from lossless, so that's what I use for
music storage on my portable player.

On 10/24/2015 09:01 PM, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote:
> Hey.
> 
> I just wondered,... which is the recommended bitrate and further
> settings of opusenc (like complexity and framesize) for general music
> (e.g. including classical music) to achieve more or less transparency?
> Talking about CD level audio (16bit; 44,1 kHz; Stereo)
> 
> The only source I could find regarding that was:
> http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Opus#Music_encoding_quality
> 
> But that seems to imply that transparency is achieved with 256bit...
> and "close to transparency" wit 128bit... and then I wonder why
one
> would need Opus, because I thought that's about the same for
> AAC/MP3/Vorbis.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Chris.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> opus mailing list
> opus at xiph.org
> http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/opus
>

On Sun, 2015-10-25 at 02:50 -0200, Lucas Clemente Vella
wrote:
> Well, with stored music files, with close to transparency bitrate,
> you don't really need Opus. Now compare it with Vorbis when streaming
> on a low bandwidth connection with real-time latency...
Well sure,.. but why not using state of the art if supported by the
end-device - even if it's just a tiny bit better in
compression/quality.

Cheers,
Chris.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature
Size: 5313 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/opus/attachments/20151026/be4f119f/attachment.bin

On Sat, 2015-10-24 at 22:16 -0700, Thomas Daede wrote:
> Everything above 96kbps on that table is speculative, as the highest
> multi-participant listening testing done was at 96kbps. Here's the
> results from that test, if you're curious:
> 
> http://listening-test.coresv.net/results.htm
> 
> As you can see, at that rate Opus ranged from slightly perceptible to
> imperceptible. Also importantly, note how few of the donors were able
> to
> give significant results on most tracks. This makes a 128kbps or
> higher
> test impractical as there would not be enough listeners capable of
> hearing a difference. The HydrogenAudio wiki should probably be
> updated
> accordingly.

So basically, with 100 kB/s or say 128 kB/s one should be more or less
safe and very close to transparency, right?!


Are there any bitrates recommended (e.g. for quality or performance
reasons)? E.g. that one should use 128 kB/s rather than 127 kB/s or is
this anyway moot, since with VBR it's just a target value?

When I increase the encoding complexity to 10, this won't have any
noticeable effect on the decoding complexity, right?

Last but not least, since my purpose would be listening to music, is it
best to set the framesize to its maximum (60ms)?
And will this have any bad side effects, like on gapless playback or
so?


Thanks,
Chris.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature
Size: 5313 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/opus/attachments/20151026/1e664233/attachment.bin