openssh unix dev - Jan 2019 - sftp Vs scp

I almost never use bare 'scp' or 'sftp' anymore; I start with
either 'rsync' or, if 'rsync' is not present and not installable
on one end or the other, the "tar-over-bare-ssh" approach:

```
tar cf - localpath | ssh remote.host 'cd remotepath && tar xvf
-'
```

I'd be in favor of one of the following:

1. 'scp' goes away, and support for file transfer via CLI is added to
'sftp'.

2. 'scp' goes away, and support for file transfer via CLI is changed to,
"use rsync or something-over-bare-ssh instead, good luck".

3. 'scp' stays, but becomes the CLI for SFTP, and the SCP protocol
breaks.

4. 'scp' goes away, and a new 's'-command[*] is created that
does file transfer via CLI, possibly using SFTP.

The old proprietary SSHv2 did #4, with the new command called 'scp2',
and a long tail for the transition while 'scp' and 'scp2'
coexisted.


____________________
[*]: For example, "sput", "scpx", or for fun, "Secure
Copying Remote Artifacts Program" = "scrap".


-- 
jim knoble

> On Jan 24, 2019, at 10:27, Ben Lindstrom <mouring at offwriting.org>
wrote:
> 
> Corinna Vinschen wrote on 1/24/19 6:28 AM:
>> What's missing in sftp is a drop in replacement mode for copying to
>> the remote server, i.e. this should work out of the box:
>> 
>>   $ sftp -rp local_dir server:path
>> 
>> But, alas:
>> 
>>   ssh: Could not resolve hostname local_dir: Name or service not known
>> 
>> If sftp had this mode, I would alias scp=sftp and be done with it.
>> 
> If memory serves the argument was "if we are calling it an ftp client
then it should act like an ftp client."  And sadly most ftp clients
don't provide a command-line push UI which is why I abandoned my patch.
> 
> I know Damien Miller about a year or so later asked if I had the patch
still, but by that point I had already left the project due to time constrains
and deleted all my local code.  So maybe if presented again with something more
"ftpish" it could be accepted:
> 
> sftp -rp -U /path/to/transfer  [user@]server:path
> 
> Description:
> 
> -U    upload a local file or directory (if -r is used) to the remotely
server and path.
> 
> 
> Damien, Darren?  Does that seem like a reasonable thing that may be
accepted upstream for sftp?
> 
> I know it isn't a "UI replacement" but it at least provides a
more complete UI for phasing people off of scp.
> 
> Ben
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> openssh-unix-dev mailing list
> openssh-unix-dev at mindrot.org
> https://lists.mindrot.org/mailman/listinfo/openssh-unix-dev

On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 12:00:48PM -0800, Jim Knoble
wrote:
> 3. 'scp' stays, but becomes the CLI for SFTP, and the SCP protocol
breaks.
Why does "scp becomes the CLI for SFTP" necessitate "the SCP
protocol
breaks"?
> 4. 'scp' goes away, and a new 's'-command[*] is created
that does file transfer via CLI, possibly using SFTP.
> 
> The old proprietary SSHv2 did #4, with the new command called
'scp2', and a long tail for the transition while 'scp' and
'scp2' coexisted.
Wasn't that part of generally adding "2" as a suffix to all their
command names when adding v2 protocol support?

-- 
Colin Watson                                       [cjwatson at debian.org]

Hi,

On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 08:26:39PM +0000, Colin Watson
wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 12:00:48PM -0800, Jim Knoble wrote:
> > 3. 'scp' stays, but becomes the CLI for SFTP, and the SCP
protocol breaks.
> 
> Why does "scp becomes the CLI for SFTP" necessitate "the SCP
protocol
> breaks"?
The way scp works today is "run ssh to the remote, then invoke scp with
a few extra options".  So if "the program named scp" will no
longer
provide the server side functionality, it would break *older* scp
clients trying to talk "scp-the-old-protocol" to *newer* ssh
installations.

Now, of course, the "scp-that-does-sftp" binary could have an
understanding for the old scp-server-side options...  but that
sounds like a maintenance annoyance.

gert
-- 
"If was one thing all people took for granted, was conviction that if you 
 feed honest figures into a computer, honest figures come out. Never doubted 
 it myself till I met a computer with a sense of humor."
                             Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

Gert Doering - Munich, Germany                             gert at
greenie.muc.de

On 2019-01-24 12:26, Colin Watson wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 12:00:48PM -0800, Jim Knoble wrote:
>> 4. 'scp' goes away, and a new 's'-command[*] is created
that does file transfer via CLI, possibly using SFTP.
>>
>> The old proprietary SSHv2 did #4, with the new command called
'scp2', and a long tail for the transition while 'scp' and
'scp2' coexisted.
> Wasn't that part of generally adding "2" as a suffix to all
their
> command names when adding v2 protocol support?
Yes; however, the 'scp2' command was also transitioned to use the SFTP 
protocol at the same time, as I recall.SSH.COM's website implies that 
(but does not seem to provide the history): 
https://www.ssh.com/ssh/sftp/#sec-SCP-Command-on-Linux .? I'm unable to 
find any other historical reference offhand that backs up my memory, so 
take that for what it's worth.? That said, it's not a bad idea. (-:

-- 

jim knoble