hey fletcher, thanks for your input here. :+) and -- quite obviously -- your program will be whatever it is that _you_ think that it should be. of course. the thing is, i am certain that i have been clear that the feature that i believe will be "killer" is on-the-fly formatted display. that's my stand. and i'd say my reasoning has been equally clear, namely that this will make markup dirt-simple. the feedback loops were heretofore too indirect, too far removed between writing and rendering. based on the reception "marked" has received, it's plain to see my belief is essentially correct. but "marked" involves a workflow with two apps, so although the feedback is now more _speedy_, it's still more obtuse and clumsy than necessary. consolidation into one app solves that problem. and i'd believed -- based on your early betas -- that that was the approach that you were taking. and i made a fair number of posts here that were written with that assumption playing a major part. so it seems to me that if i was mistaken in that, you could have informed everyone here earlier... but hey, no harm, no foul. composer is what it is. and it will be what it will be. best of luck with it... but _i_ am still disappointed with it. because it lacks the feature that i consider "killer". i bought it to review, so i'm not really "a customer", and i can't say that i'd be a disappointed customer if i was, because there's a lot that i like in the app... and due to that, i still give it good word-of-mouth. but as a light-markup fan, who'd hoped "composer" would zoom acceptance of markdown, i'm just a bit disappointed that this first version is so lackluster, at least compared to what i was expecting from it... but i continue to hope that it continues its successes. and if you won't bring the killer-feature to markdown, i hope somebody else will... again, no harm, no foul... *** having said all that, let's resolve a few stragglers... fletcher said:> Nope --- it takes a single keystroke to display.that's weird... because on my copy, the shortcut to summon up the preview window is control-apple-p, which the fingers of my hand count as a three keys. three hard-to-remember overloaded keys to boot...> I've never found it useful > to have an "as I type" preview.i have. i've found it to be _tremendously_ useful. well, i prefer if there's a slight delay in the update, so it doesn't trigger _while_ i'm writing, but rather after any pause, the length of which is user-chosen. (does anyone here remember the "showdown" site?)> I've never found it useful > to have an "as I type" preview. > Therefore it's not in Composer.again, it woulda been nice if you told us that sooner.> Again, plenty of other apps offer this > if that's what you want.they do? who? where? i would _love_ to see them.> If you use Marked for your preview, > which is the preferred methodit's not _my_ "preferred method".> since Marked is much more detailed > of a preview app than Composer will ever beok. if you say so. you know what your plans are. and what they are not. so i have to believe you... but you're killing what could be your killer-feature. in my opinion. (do i really need to add that phrase?)> Nope. Just use the key command > any time you want an update.yeah, i see that (just as i hoped) i was wrong there. it's because i sometimes had "marked" activated, unbeknownst to me, and that was confusing me...> If you're working on a long document, > it's not realistic to expect an as you type live preview > - the performance just won't be there.i'll wait to challenge you on this assertion until i see just exactly how well my app works in such situations. but all the evidence i have so far indicates to me that i can make things workable, with trick or two or three.> Perhaps you were expecting a different application?um, well yes, that's exactly the point i've been making. i've been expecting an app that did on-the-fly display.> these are the "killer features" > for which Composer was designed.like i said, they're nice. i wouldn't call 'em "killer", but they are nice, and you implemented them well. and they'll appeal to people who are markdown-savvy. but an app that does on-the-fly display in real-time will make markdown appeal to _everybody_else_too_. and that is a _much_much_ bigger audience of people. which is precisely why _that_ feature will be _killer_...> Composer is about the writing, not the previewing.sometime in the future, you'll realize that's a mistake. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/attachments/20111025/8b01f324/attachment.html>
On Oct 25, 2011, at 4:48 AM, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote: (snipped for brevity)> and i'd believed -- based on your early betas -- > that that was the approach that you were taking. > > and i made a fair number of posts here that were > written with that assumption playing a major part. > > so it seems to me that if i was mistaken in that, > you could have informed everyone here earlier...The preview functionality in the current version is essentially the same as in the early preview version. In fact, even back then, the "preview with Marked" feature was there. Was there something that changed that makes it seem like a "head fake"? I certainly did not intentionally mislead you about the purpose of Composer, and I feel that feature has actually been remarkably stable since the preview. I don't recall ever seeing a post on this list by anyone, actually, who requested a change in the preview functionality during the 4 months or so between the preview version and the final version.> > I've never found it useful > > to have an "as I type" preview. > > Therefore it's not in Composer. > > again, it woulda been nice if you told us that sooner.I never said it was there. I can't keep an exhaustive list of the features that are *not* in Composer.> > If you use Marked for your preview, > > which is the preferred method > > it's not _my_ "preferred method".That's fine. But Composer's preview functionality is minimal. Marked's is much better. Therefore I am not reinventing the wheel, and from the beginning have had support for previewing with Marked. That's why the app has a built-in link to Marked. When Brett adds an API to Marked, the integration can become tighter.> > Composer is about the writing, not the previewing. > > sometime in the future, you'll realize that's a mistake.Since the Composer project was started to provide an editor that does what *I* want, and then grew a bit beyond that, by definition it's not a mistake. I am extremely happy with Composer. Many others are as well. But, like MMD itself, it's not for everyone. That's fine. My goal is not to take over the world. My goal is to create something that I find useful, and then share it with others that find it useful. It worked with MMD, and I believe it will work with Composer as well. But I have already succeeded, because I now have an editor for MMD documents that is better than anything else out there --- *for me*. Others are welcome to use whichever program is best *for them.* And many people have expressed that they feel the same way about composer (you can't read my email inbox, but you can search twitter.) F- -- Fletcher T. Penney fletcher at fletcherpenney.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/attachments/20111025/39714dcb/attachment.htm> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4899 bytes Desc: not available Url : <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/attachments/20111025/39714dcb/attachment-0001.bin>
Byword http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/byword/id420212497?mt=12 On Oct 25, 2011, at 1:48 AM, Bowerbird at aol.com wrote:> > Again, plenty of other apps offer this > > if that's what you want. > > they do? who? where? i would _love_ to see them.-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/attachments/20111025/5faab7f6/attachment.htm>
mandarin said:> Bywordum, yeah, i just mentioned byword in that post, didn't i? on the good side, i think it's cheaper than it used to be... and yes, it's a very good program, and people like it a lot. heck, i myself am one of the people who like byword a lot. plus, i _love_ a program that opens up with a white screen, full-screen, no menu or nothing, the first time you run it... that takes some huevos, to put a new user in an avalanche. on the bad side, it requires a command to show a preview. and that is the very exact thing we are talking about here. _plus_ it displays the formatted version starting at the top. so it shares both the flaws that i criticized in "composer". (i note, ironically, that byword's 3-key preview shortcut is option-apple-p, so it conflicts with composer's shortcut; so much for "muscle-memory" if you use both programs.) on the ugly side, from _my_ perspective anyway, byword _replaces_ the markdown text with the formatted display, when it could be showing _both_ of 'em at the same time. i dunno, perhaps i haven't been clear enough about this, but the reasons i say on-the-fly display is a killer-feature is because (1) people crave the wysiwyg functionality, and (2) a side-by-side display serves a _pedagogical_purpose_. the first is important because you gotta give people what they want, but the second is even more important, since the instructional task is what makes people _understand_ markdown and _appreciate_ the simplicity of its approach. the tight feedback loop gives users a keen perception of how simply that markdown gives them _nice_formatting_. they see how easy editing markdown text can be, and see that the output is both correct (i.e., as they intend) _and_ that it looks nice as well. they know that its .html inside, so they know they've accomplished making it web-ready. or when something _does_ need to be changed, they see how easy it is to _make_ the change, and make it _right_. so it's a very nice little package of control and mastery. it is this straightforward pedagogical pursuit which will transform ordinary people into markdown enthusiasts. and the side-by-side on-the-fly display is crucial to this, in terms of the objective of promulgating light-markup... but i recommend byword too. especially at its new price. (like byword, ia-writer has also dropped its price to $10. there is competition in this segment of the marketplace.) *** fletcher said:> The preview functionality in the current version is > essentially the same as in the early preview version.it is. i'd expected it to get smarter before leaving beta. so i was wrong. it's happened before. it'll happen again.> Was there something that changed > that makes it seem like a "head fake"?my posts have been extremely clear on what _i_ thought. the "head fake" -- your phrase, not mine -- would be that you could have told me that my assumption was incorrect. but hey, once again, no harm, no foul.> I certainly did not intentionally mislead you > about the purpose of Composerno, you didn't. i'll take full responsibility for my error... and you were under no obligation to "correct" me, either. since i was beating the drum for a feature that wasn't there, you might have been smart to make such a correction, but maybe you weren't reading my posts, or absorbing them, or maybe you just didn't mind, since i was beating your drum. whatever the case, i take full responsibility for my error...> I don't recall ever seeing a post on this list by anyone, > actually, who requested a change in the preview functionality > during the 4 months or so between the preview version > and the final version.one thing about a killer-feature is users seldom realize that they needed it -- _until_ they actually experience it in action. then, after that, they wonder how they ever lived without it... that's why "marked" was such a big surprise to so many users.> I never said it was there.i take full responsibility.> I can't keep an exhaustive list of > the features that are *not* in Composer."an exhaustive list" would be one thing. correcting one mistake, being made quite consistently, is quite another. nonetheless, i take full responsibility.> But Composer's preview functionality is minimal.i noticed.> Marked's is much better.i noticed that too.> Therefore I am not reinventing the wheelno, you're borrowing your neighbor's wheel. or, more to the point, you're having your users do that. which is fine. it's just not all that _convenient_, i think. by the way, your neighbor didn't invent the wheel either.> That's why the app has a built-in link to Marked.yes, that's quite neighborly. :+) it definitely eases the burden of dealing with two apps.> Since the Composer project was started > to provide an editor that does what *I* want, > and then grew a bit beyond that, > by definition it's not a mistake.if you think the writing is primary and the preview is secondary, then i think you're making a mistake. maybe i'm wrong, but i think _both_ are important. and in the battle in the marketplace, which you have now entered, an on-the-fly preview would have made _your_ text-editor unique compared to all the others. so, in terms of _that_ battle, you've made a mistake... in my opinion. but maybe i'm wrong. it has happened.> I am extremely happy with Composer.i am a bit perplexed. have you failed to notice that i have been one of your biggest cheerleaders so far?> Many others are as well.still perplexed. did you miss that i said exactly that?> My goal is not to take over the world.well, as you put it in a f.a.q. on the composer site:> I?m trying to balance fairness, market forces, > the countless hours of my life I?ve devoted to > creating MultiMarkdown and Composer, > and making this venture profitable.so your goals include "making this venture profitable" in order to recoup the investment of "countless hours".> My goal is to create something that I find useful, > and then share it with others that find it useful.yeah, that too... :+) especially if we consider the case of "selling" to fall under the rubric of "sharing"... ;+) (so we're clear, i think it's fine to sell software.)> It worked with MMD, and > I believe it will work with Composer as well.i'm sure it will. i'm also sure that it could work better. but there's no reason to dance around that shrub again. you said it all when you said that you couldn't program an on-the-fly display that would perform adequately... i think you probably could, if you applied elbow-grease and some brain-work, but if you say you can't, you can't. and if you can't code it, it cannot be your killer-feature. thus, there's no use in even discussing it any further... but if you _do_ come to learn that you _can_ program it, i would heartily recommend that you include it promptly. nonetheless... i'm still a composer fan, giving it good word-of-mouth. such a good fan, and so much good word-of-mouth that i feel that that, plus my $8, gives me the right to tell you that there's one thing about the app that disappoints me. and if that one thing outweighs all of my other praise in the mind of fletcher penney, then so be it. so be it. -bowerbird -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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