llvm dev - Feb 2020 - Code of Conduct Next Steps - Community feedback needed

LLVM Community,

The LLVM Code of Conduct has been in draft mode for several years now. In order
to finalize the Code of Conduct, there are 3 steps left to complete:

Draft an Incident Response Guide. 
This guide is intended for someone who is considering reporting a potential code
of conduct violation. You can view and comment on the proposed guide here (or by
email if you prefer):
https://docs.google.com/document/d/10LClyw1x1e4OIiKFFRqklbZ2D_xwZz85HZ7kWwZ_yys/edit?usp=sharing
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/10LClyw1x1e4OIiKFFRqklbZ2D_xwZz85HZ7kWwZ_yys/edit?usp=sharing>

Draft a Response Guide. 
This guide is intended for members of the code of conduct committee or
organizers of an event. You can view and comment on the proposed guide here (or
by email if you prefer):
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dEvF9NwZdaDLQNPVBudipdFiZ0E553Lz3qOqeCsfpNk/edit?usp=sharing
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dEvF9NwZdaDLQNPVBudipdFiZ0E553Lz3qOqeCsfpNk/edit?usp=sharing>
Form code of conduct committee. 
This committee will be responsible for responding to code of conduct reports as
described in the response guide. The LLVM Foundation board will propose the
initial members of this committee and provide a period of time to collect
feedback from members of the community.


In order to keep this process running smoothly and moving forward, we would
appreciate getting any  community feedback within the next two weeks..

Some previous Code of Conduct discussions have been difficult - please remember
to treat others with respect and kindness in your response.

Thanks,
Tanya

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Hi Tanya,

Is there a reason for hosting things for review on Google Docs?  We 
currently have both Phabricator and GitHub that work for review of any 
text-based format.  When I click on a Google Docs link, I am asked to 
agree to a privacy policy that is very vague and I am somewhat 
uncomfortable agreeing to it.

Thank you,

David

On 16/02/2020 17:51, Tanya Lattner via llvm-dev wrote:
> LLVM Community,
> 
> The LLVM Code of Conduct has been in draft mode for several years now. 
> In order to finalize the Code of Conduct, there are 3 steps left to 
> complete:
> 
>  1.
>     Draft an Incident Response Guide. 
> 
> This guide is intended for someone who is considering reporting a 
> potential code of conduct violation. You can view and comment on the 
> proposed guide here (or by email if you 
>
prefer):https://docs.google.com/document/d/10LClyw1x1e4OIiKFFRqklbZ2D_xwZz85HZ7kWwZ_yys/edit?usp=sharing
> 
> 
>  2.
>     Draft a Response Guide. 
> 
> This guide is intended for members of the code of conduct committee or 
> organizers of an event. You can view and comment on the proposed guide 
> here (or by email if you prefer):
>
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dEvF9NwZdaDLQNPVBudipdFiZ0E553Lz3qOqeCsfpNk/edit?usp=sharing
> 
>  3.
>     Form code of conduct committee. 
> 
> This committee will be responsible for responding to code of conduct 
> reports as described in the response guide. The LLVM Foundation board 
> will propose the initial members of this committee and provide a period 
> of time to collect feedback from members of the community.
> 
> 
> In order to keep this process running smoothly and moving forward, we 
> would appreciate getting any  community feedback within the next two 
> weeks..
> 
> Some previous Code of Conduct discussions have been difficult - please 
> remember to treat others with respect and kindness in your response.
> 
> Thanks,
> Tanya
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>

On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 at 17:52, Tanya Lattner via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> The LLVM Code of Conduct has been in draft mode for several years now. In
order to finalize the Code of Conduct, there are 3 steps left to complete:
Hi Tanya,

I've added my comments to the documents, but I agree with David, we
should use the standard review tools we have for text, like we did
before. Google Docs not only needs agreements but it can also be
confusing to review if you're not used to.
> The LLVM Foundation board will propose the initial members of this
committee and provide a period of time to collect feedback from members of the
community.
It's very important that this committee is diverse and inclusive. We
should be looking for inclusion in all areas: gender, ethnicity,
corporate/academia/hobbyist, sub-projects, disability, geographical
location, etc.

The CoC is not about code, but about behaviour and interpretation, so
the committee needs to be more than just heavy coders. But it can
directly affect coders, and subsequently, the code.

Therefore, it also cannot be random people from the Internet, just
because they have done something in other projects. They need to be
directly engaged into LLVM long term, either with code, research,
infrastructure, documentation, conferences, etc.

I'd also be more comfortable with a large number of potential people,
where sub-committees get selected as a small sub-set. If the same
people make the decisions for all cases, the bias would be incredible.
We need to make sure that we have enough people to be able to create
sub-committees with enough members and still have a balanced
(incomplete) block design, to ensure fairness.

Finally, my own personal issue is with mental health and disability.
How will you make sure that someone on the committee understands
(either through experience or clinical knowledge) the intricate
details of the common causes of misinterpreted behaviour in
non-neurotypical or with temporary/permanent poor mental health state?
Not many people identify themselves as clearly as I do, but they
suffer the same nonetheless. Without that covered, we may be
alienating an important part of our community.

cheers,
--renato

> On Feb 17, 2020, at 10:06 AM, David Chisnall via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Tanya,
> 
> Is there a reason for hosting things for review on Google Docs?  We
currently have both Phabricator and GitHub that work for review of any
text-based format.  When I click on a Google Docs link, I am asked to agree to a
privacy policy that is very vague and I am somewhat uncomfortable agreeing to
it.
> 
David,

I understand not everyone wants to use Google docs which was why I gave an
option to reply via email as well. My intention on using Google docs is really
just based on my experience using it for docs that span different groups of
people and it is what I primarily use for text documents.

I would like everyone to feel like they have a way to respond and provide
feedback so please let me know if the options I have given do not work.

Thanks,
Tanya
> Thank you,
> 
> David
> 
>> On 16/02/2020 17:51, Tanya Lattner via llvm-dev wrote:
>> LLVM Community,
>> The LLVM Code of Conduct has been in draft mode for several years now.
In order to finalize the Code of Conduct, there are 3 steps left to complete:
>> 1.
>>    Draft an Incident Response Guide. This guide is intended for someone
who is considering reporting a potential code of conduct violation. You can view
and comment on the proposed guide here (or by email if you
prefer):https://docs.google.com/document/d/10LClyw1x1e4OIiKFFRqklbZ2D_xwZz85HZ7kWwZ_yys/edit?usp=sharing
>> 2.
>>    Draft a Response Guide. This guide is intended for members of the
code of conduct committee or organizers of an event. You can view and comment on
the proposed guide here (or by email if you prefer):
>>
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dEvF9NwZdaDLQNPVBudipdFiZ0E553Lz3qOqeCsfpNk/edit?usp=sharing
>> 3.
>>    Form code of conduct committee. This committee will be responsible
for responding to code of conduct reports as described in the response guide.
The LLVM Foundation board will propose the initial members of this committee and
provide a period of time to collect feedback from members of the community.
>> In order to keep this process running smoothly and moving forward, we
would appreciate getting any  community feedback within the next two weeks..
>> Some previous Code of Conduct discussions have been difficult - please
remember to treat others with respect and kindness in your response.
>> Thanks,
>> Tanya
>> _______________________________________________
>> LLVM Developers mailing list
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev

Hi, Tanya.

At this stage, I'm concerned that some time periods are not yet defined
(e.g., "X amount of time").

Also, I'm afraid that the process focuses too much on the reporter and the
reportee, possibly bowling down to one's word against the other's. 
I'd be more assured if witnesses were encouraged when the situation allows
for it.

Additionally, methinks that the process should proceed protecting the privacy of
the parties until the final decision, including any appeal.

One thing that I wish were part of and a goal of the process would be to promote
reconciliation between the parties, in addition to or in lieu of punitive
measures, as long as both parties agree.

I have questions on the make up of the CoC as well, besides what Renato pointed
out, but also about the rotation of its members, election and term duration.  Is
this spelled out elsewhere?

Thank you,

__ 
Evandro Menezes ◊ SiFive ◊ Austin, TX
> On Feb 16, 2020, at 11:51, Tanya Lattner via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> 
> LLVM Community,
> 
> The LLVM Code of Conduct has been in draft mode for several years now. In
order to finalize the Code of Conduct, there are 3 steps left to complete:
> 
> Draft an Incident Response Guide. 
> This guide is intended for someone who is considering reporting a potential
code of conduct violation. You can view and comment on the proposed guide here
(or by email if you prefer):
https://docs.google.com/document/d/10LClyw1x1e4OIiKFFRqklbZ2D_xwZz85HZ7kWwZ_yys/edit?usp=sharing
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/10LClyw1x1e4OIiKFFRqklbZ2D_xwZz85HZ7kWwZ_yys/edit?usp=sharing>
> 
> Draft a Response Guide. 
> This guide is intended for members of the code of conduct committee or
organizers of an event. You can view and comment on the proposed guide here (or
by email if you prefer):
>
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dEvF9NwZdaDLQNPVBudipdFiZ0E553Lz3qOqeCsfpNk/edit?usp=sharing
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dEvF9NwZdaDLQNPVBudipdFiZ0E553Lz3qOqeCsfpNk/edit?usp=sharing>
> Form code of conduct committee. 
> This committee will be responsible for responding to code of conduct
reports as described in the response guide. The LLVM Foundation board will
propose the initial members of this committee and provide a period of time to
collect feedback from members of the community.
> 
> 
> In order to keep this process running smoothly and moving forward, we would
appreciate getting any  community feedback within the next two weeks..
> 
> Some previous Code of Conduct discussions have been difficult - please
remember to treat others with respect and kindness in your response.
> 
> Thanks,
> Tanya
> 
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
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On 17/02/20 22:11, Renato Golin via llvm-dev wrote:
> Finally, my own personal issue is with mental health and disability.
> How will you make sure that someone on the committee understands
> (either through experience or clinical knowledge) the intricate
> details of the common causes of misinterpreted behaviour in
> non-neurotypical or with temporary/permanent poor mental health state?
> Not many people identify themselves as clearly as I do, but they
> suffer the same nonetheless. Without that covered, we may be
> alienating an important part of our community.
Plus one. Take a look at the recent CoC thread on lilypond-devel

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-devel/2020-02/msg00387.html

(sorry, there are several thread-breaking email clients there ... :-(

You'll see the issue there is that (a) the lead developer - an NNT - saw
it (the punishment stuff) as a personal attack, and (b) that like *most*
NNTs, his natural reaction to conflict is to walk away. The result would
likely be serious collateral damage to the project.

My personal take is that if you punish someone for WHAT they are, it's
discrimination. End of. Including NNTs. If someone *chooses* to be an
asshole then ban them. But if an NNT doesn't realise it then you need to
be a mentor and fix it - again, NNTs usually want to put things right.

And given that NNTs tend to be the most productive, most caring, most
conscientious workers then yes you will be alienating the most important
part of the community.

Cheers,
Wol
(self-diagnosed Aspergers)

> On Feb 17, 2020, at 2:11 PM, Renato Golin <rengolin at gmail.com>
wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 at 17:52, Tanya Lattner via llvm-dev
> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>> The LLVM Code of Conduct has been in draft mode for several years now.
In order to finalize the Code of Conduct, there are 3 steps left to complete:
> 
> Hi Tanya,
> 
> I've added my comments to the documents, but I agree with David, we
> should use the standard review tools we have for text, like we did
> before. Google Docs not only needs agreements but it can also be
> confusing to review if you're not used to.
> 
>> The LLVM Foundation board will propose the initial members of this
committee and provide a period of time to collect feedback from members of the
community.
> 
> It's very important that this committee is diverse and inclusive. We
> should be looking for inclusion in all areas: gender, ethnicity,
> corporate/academia/hobbyist, sub-projects, disability, geographical
> location, etc.
> 
> The CoC is not about code, but about behaviour and interpretation, so
> the committee needs to be more than just heavy coders. But it can
> directly affect coders, and subsequently, the code.
> 
> Therefore, it also cannot be random people from the Internet, just
> because they have done something in other projects. They need to be
> directly engaged into LLVM long term, either with code, research,
> infrastructure, documentation, conferences, etc.
> 
> I'd also be more comfortable with a large number of potential people,
> where sub-committees get selected as a small sub-set. If the same
> people make the decisions for all cases, the bias would be incredible.
> We need to make sure that we have enough people to be able to create
> sub-committees with enough members and still have a balanced
> (incomplete) block design, to ensure fairness.
> 
> Finally, my own personal issue is with mental health and disability.
> How will you make sure that someone on the committee understands
> (either through experience or clinical knowledge) the intricate
> details of the common causes of misinterpreted behaviour in
> non-neurotypical or with temporary/permanent poor mental health state?
> Not many people identify themselves as clearly as I do, but they
> suffer the same nonetheless. Without that covered, we may be
> alienating an important part of our community.
I appreciate the feedback on forming the committee. I have not written down any
of my thoughts yet for review, but I share many that you brought up here. I’ll
try hard to be transparent as possible with this process and share more details
when I have them written down.

Thanks,
Tanya

> 
> cheers,
> --renato