llvm dev - Nov 2019 - Fwd: RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

On 11/19/19 9:09 AM, Zachary Turner via llvm-dev wrote:
Note there is also Slack, which does not have these problems.  Not sure why that
keeps being overlooked


My understanding is this is because Slack does not have good moderation tools.
I'm unfamiliar with further details in this regard.

 -Hal


On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 7:07 AM Zachary Turner <zturner at
roblox.com<mailto:zturner at roblox.com>> wrote:
But is it better or worse than IRC in this regard?

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 10:49 PM Daniel Chapiesky via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>> wrote:


---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Daniel Chapiesky <dchapiesky2 at gmail.com<mailto:dchapiesky2 at
gmail.com>>
Date: Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 1:48 AM
Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's
discussions
To: Gaier, Bjoern <Bjoern.Gaier at horiba.com<mailto:Bjoern.Gaier at
horiba.com>>


Bjoern said:

" I found it pretty difficult to use Discord for that, because there was
one channel for asking questions. So I posted my question, but the next reply
was to the previous subject, burying my question directly. So I think... this
was bad"

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well said Bjoern.

That and discussions won't be archived or usefully searchable - discord
search is horrible



On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 10:42 AM Gaier, Bjoern via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
Hey :/

It is weird for me to write something to this subject, because... as an newbie I
kinda feel like not being 'allowed' to do so. I'm following the
mailing list for quite a while and usually use it to ask questions. I'm not
sure how to become a bigger part of the LLVM and if I'm suitable for it...
I often use Discord to stay in touch with friends and for my hobby (Furries) -
however, I joined exactly one programming related server about Box2D (a physics
library) , again to ask questions. I found it pretty difficult to use Discord
for that, because there was one channel for asking questions. So I posted my
question, but the next reply was to the previous subject, burying my question
directly. So I think... this was bad :/ Sometimes you were lucky that people dug
out your old questions but... that rarely happened.
Also the general chats were kinda silent...

Since I'm only asking questions here, I would like a system where questions
are not being drowned by other discussions and the mailing list kinda works for
me. Sure, after a while my message might be buried as well, but it takes longer
then in Discord. Also the titles help me deciding if the subject is of interest
for me or not...

Maybe that helped? Sorry if not >o<

-----Original Message-----
From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev-bounces
at lists.llvm.org>> On Behalf Of Kristina Brooks via llvm-dev
Sent: 18 November 2019 16:29
To: Chandler Carruth <chandlerc at gmail.com<mailto:chandlerc at
gmail.com>>
Cc: llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>>
Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's
discussions

While I understand the difficulty regarding mailing lists especially if one
isn't used to setting up mailboxes and filters to classify and label emails
and do think a web forum may be easier to use, I would have concerns over
Discord. Unlike IRC which has a fairly open protocol and many clients and open
source server implementations, Discord is fairly hostile towards 3rd party
clients, and has a concerning history with regards to privacy. While that may
not be a concern for public channels, private messages are another matter
entirely. The protocol isn't entirely friendly and is relatively new, which
makes it inflexible to use compared to IRC. IRC clients are easy to leave in
tmux sessions and reconnect, as opposed to Discord where something akin to a web
browser is required for a somewhat stable client and 3rd party clients, aside
from stability issues, are flat out against the terms of service (even if this
aspect isn't actively enforced). On top of that there are too many out of
scope features related to software project development, with Discord being far
more than a transit provider, unlike what a lot of IRC networks are classed
under. So as far as Discord goes, very strong -1 in my opinion.

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 7:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>>
wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> Short version:
> I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC)
and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
> 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3368bc108e8e
> &auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-a7135ce3448aed0736828c8
> badf539d389685869
>
> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and
still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this
thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services
have dedicated feedback channels.
>
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not
to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and
Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are
fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't
work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
>
> Longer version & more details:
> During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
> expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a
> non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out
> about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing
> lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often
> intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant
> to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was
> compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it
> means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>
> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the
most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form
discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse
server. You can find them here:
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
> 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3368bc108e8e
> &auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-a7135ce3448aed0736828c8
> badf539d389685869
>
> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for
folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse,
and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and
Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to
these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up.
Some specific things we're already working on:
>
> Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
> Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place, etc.
>
> See the plan here:
> https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
> 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group%2ft%2fmirroring%2dand%2darchiving%2dllvm%
> 2dmailing%2dlists%2don%2ddiscourse%2f61&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3
> 368bc108e8e&auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-ecf495cfb4c1
> 9b33b2115bb647dbc85b26fc4ca0
>
> Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org<http://forums.llvm.org>.
> Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a similarly
email-focused workflow.
>
>
> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously
try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the
bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had
serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam,
bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful
email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving
to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>
> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving
me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things,
but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in
the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I
really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these
long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT
workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch
of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it
without her help, especially around Discord bots.
>
> -Chandler
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
_______________________________________________
LLVM Developers mailing list
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
Als GmbH eingetragen im Handelsregister Bad Homburg v.d.H. HRB 9816, USt.ID-Nr.
DE 114 165 789 Geschäftsführer: Dr. Hiroshi Nakamura, Dr. Robert Plank, Markus
Bode, Heiko Lampert, Takashi Nagano, Takeshi Fukushima. Junichi Tajika
_______________________________________________
LLVM Developers mailing list
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
_______________________________________________
LLVM Developers mailing list
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev



_______________________________________________
LLVM Developers mailing list
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev


--
Hal Finkel
Lead, Compiler Technology and Programming Languages
Leadership Computing Facility
Argonne National Laboratory
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I suspected it may be related to Discord's heavy emphasis on role-based
permissions, but it would be good to get an official answer.  Slack
definitely does have administrators, and Administrators can kick people out
of the slack, which...  might be sufficient?  I don't know . From a
usability standpoint, Discord is vastly inferior to Slack so I think it's
worth doing this comparison

On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 7:38 AM Finkel, Hal J. <hfinkel at anl.gov> wrote:
>
> On 11/19/19 9:09 AM, Zachary Turner via llvm-dev wrote:
>
> Note there is also Slack, which does not have these problems.  Not sure
> why that keeps being overlooked
>
>
> My understanding is this is because Slack does not have good moderation
> tools. I'm unfamiliar with further details in this regard.
>
>  -Hal
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 7:07 AM Zachary Turner <zturner at
roblox.com> wrote:
>
>> But is it better or worse than IRC in this regard?
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 10:49 PM Daniel Chapiesky via llvm-dev <
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>> From: Daniel Chapiesky <dchapiesky2 at gmail.com>
>>> Date: Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 1:48 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse
for
>>> LLVM's discussions
>>> To: Gaier, Bjoern <Bjoern.Gaier at horiba.com>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bjoern said:
>>>
>>> " I found it pretty difficult to use Discord for that, because
there was
>>> one channel for asking questions. So I posted my question, but the
next
>>> reply was to the previous subject, burying my question directly. So
I
>>> think... this was bad"
>>>
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>
>>> Well said Bjoern.
>>>
>>> That and discussions won't be archived or usefully searchable -
discord
>>> search is horrible
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 10:42 AM Gaier, Bjoern via llvm-dev <
>>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey :/
>>>>
>>>> It is weird for me to write something to this subject,
because... as an
>>>> newbie I kinda feel like not being 'allowed' to do so.
I'm following the
>>>> mailing list for quite a while and usually use it to ask
questions. I'm not
>>>> sure how to become a bigger part of the LLVM and if I'm
suitable for it...
>>>> I often use Discord to stay in touch with friends and for my
hobby
>>>> (Furries) - however, I joined exactly one programming related
server about
>>>> Box2D (a physics library) , again to ask questions. I found it
pretty
>>>> difficult to use Discord for that, because there was one
channel for asking
>>>> questions. So I posted my question, but the next reply was to
the previous
>>>> subject, burying my question directly. So I think... this was
bad :/
>>>> Sometimes you were lucky that people dug out your old questions
but... that
>>>> rarely happened.
>>>> Also the general chats were kinda silent...
>>>>
>>>> Since I'm only asking questions here, I would like a system
where
>>>> questions are not being drowned by other discussions and the
mailing list
>>>> kinda works for me. Sure, after a while my message might be
buried as well,
>>>> but it takes longer then in Discord. Also the titles help me
deciding if
>>>> the subject is of interest for me or not...
>>>>
>>>> Maybe that helped? Sorry if not >o<
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org> On
Behalf Of Kristina
>>>> Brooks via llvm-dev
>>>> Sent: 18 November 2019 16:29
>>>> To: Chandler Carruth <chandlerc at gmail.com>
>>>> Cc: llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and
Discourse for
>>>> LLVM's discussions
>>>>
>>>> While I understand the difficulty regarding mailing lists
especially if
>>>> one isn't used to setting up mailboxes and filters to
classify and label
>>>> emails and do think a web forum may be easier to use, I would
have concerns
>>>> over Discord. Unlike IRC which has a fairly open protocol and
many clients
>>>> and open source server implementations, Discord is fairly
hostile towards
>>>> 3rd party clients, and has a concerning history with regards to
privacy.
>>>> While that may not be a concern for public channels, private
messages are
>>>> another matter entirely. The protocol isn't entirely
friendly and is
>>>> relatively new, which makes it inflexible to use compared to
IRC. IRC
>>>> clients are easy to leave in tmux sessions and reconnect, as
opposed to
>>>> Discord where something akin to a web browser is required for a
somewhat
>>>> stable client and 3rd party clients, aside from stability
issues, are flat
>>>> out against the terms of service (even if this aspect isn't
actively
>>>> enforced). On top of that there are too many out of scope
features related
>>>> to software project development, with Discord being far more
than a transit
>>>> provider, unlike what a lot of IRC networks are classed under.
So as far as
>>>> Discord goes, very strong -1 in my opinion.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 7:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev
<
>>>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Hello everyone,
>>>> >
>>>> > Short version:
>>>> > I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat
(similar to
>>>> IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email
lists):
>>>> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>>>> >
>>>>
https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
>>>> >
3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3368bc108e8e
>>>> >
&auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-a7135ce3448aed0736828c8
>>>> > badf539d389685869
>>>> >
>>>> > Please join and use these new services. They are only
partially set
>>>> up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them
and/or reach out
>>>> to this thread with any issues you see or things you want to
fix. Also,
>>>> both services have dedicated feedback channels.
>>>> >
>>>> > Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions,
although try
>>>> not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would
between the
>>>> lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having
the discussion
>>>> with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In
case Discourse
>>>> doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything
so it isn't lost.
>>>> >
>>>> > Longer version & more details:
>>>> > During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools
meeting, folks
>>>> > expressed very clearly that our communication systems
cause a
>>>> > non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to
find out
>>>> > about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting
and mailing
>>>> > lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar,
difficult, and often
>>>> > intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan
and resistant
>>>> > to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT
was
>>>> > compelling and important for us as a community to address.
Even if it
>>>> > means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>>>> >
>>>> > We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options
out there
>>>> and the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and
Discourse for
>>>> longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an
initial Discord
>>>> and Discourse server. You can find them here:
>>>> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>>>> >
>>>>
https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
>>>> >
3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3368bc108e8e
>>>> >
&auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-a7135ce3448aed0736828c8
>>>> > badf539d389685869
>>>> >
>>>> > There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd
be great for
>>>> folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the
groups in
>>>> Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help
moderate on both
>>>> Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a
specific set of
>>>> improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or
Meike and we
>>>> can get you set up. Some specific things we're already
working on:
>>>> >
>>>> > Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
>>>> > Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search
in one
>>>> place, etc.
>>>> >
>>>> > See the plan here:
>>>> >
>>>>
https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
>>>> >
3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group%2ft%2fmirroring%2dand%2darchiving%2dllvm%
>>>> >
2dmailing%2dlists%2don%2ddiscourse%2f61&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3
>>>> >
368bc108e8e&auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-ecf495cfb4c1
>>>> > 9b33b2115bb647dbc85b26fc4ca0
>>>> >
>>>> > Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
>>>> > Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while
preserving a
>>>> similarly email-focused workflow.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > We're just adding these for now, but I'd like
people to seriously try
>>>> using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is
one of the
>>>> bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective,
but also have
>>>> had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a
constant flow of
>>>> spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc.
Discourse has very
>>>> powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should
seriously
>>>> consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email
lists.
>>>> >
>>>> > I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT
workshop for
>>>> giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways
around these
>>>> kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has
posed to
>>>> people less established in the community was a real eye opener.
It takes a
>>>> lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope
this also
>>>> helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge
thanks to
>>>> Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping
drive this
>>>> message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these
things set
>>>> up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help,
especially around
>>>> Discord bots.
>>>> >
>>>> > -Chandler
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > LLVM Developers mailing list
>>>> > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>>>> > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> LLVM Developers mailing list
>>>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>>>> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>>>> Als GmbH eingetragen im Handelsregister Bad Homburg v.d.H. HRB
9816,
>>>> USt.ID-Nr. DE 114 165 789 Geschäftsführer: Dr. Hiroshi
Nakamura, Dr. Robert
>>>> Plank, Markus Bode, Heiko Lampert, Takashi Nagano, Takeshi
Fukushima.
>>>> Junichi Tajika
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> LLVM Developers mailing list
>>>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>>>> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> LLVM Developers mailing list
>>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>>> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing listllvm-dev at
lists.llvm.orghttps://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
> --
> Hal Finkel
> Lead, Compiler Technology and Programming Languages
> Leadership Computing Facility
> Argonne National Laboratory
>
>
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Slack's community moderation features are pretty terrible - it's simply 
not set up for managing public-facing communities; it's set up for 
managing private workplace team collaboration.  The best way to try to 
explain the features which are missing are to look at something like the 
Matrix moderation guide (https://matrix.org/docs/guides/moderation/); 
many of these features are missing in Slack.

On 19/11/2019 17:51, Zachary Turner via llvm-dev wrote:
> I suspected it may be related to Discord's heavy emphasis on 
> role-based permissions, but it would be good to get an official 
> answer.  Slack definitely does have administrators, and Administrators 
> can kick people out of the slack, which... might be sufficient?  I 
> don't know . From a usability standpoint, Discord is vastly inferior 
> to Slack so I think it's worth doing this comparison
>
> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 7:38 AM Finkel, Hal J. <hfinkel at anl.gov 
> <mailto:hfinkel at anl.gov>> wrote:
>
>
>     On 11/19/19 9:09 AM, Zachary Turner via llvm-dev wrote:
>>     Note there is also Slack, which does not have these problems. 
>>     Not sure why that keeps being overlooked
>
>
>     My understanding is this is because Slack does not have good
>     moderation tools. I'm unfamiliar with further details in this
regard.
>
>      -Hal
>
>
>>
-- 
Matthew Hodgson
Matrix.org

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