On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 9:37 AM via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:> Please include MSVC in the table. While the picture on Windows is way less > complicated than for *nix, it's still a platform and toolchain that matter > to a number of us in the community. > > > > Separately, there was talk of needing to have bots that specifically use > the oldest supported toolchains, otherwise we can't genuinely promise that > they are really supported (don't want feature dependencies creeping in by > accident). >IMHO the difference between "supported" and having a bot validating the configuration is whether we accept patches to fix issues on this particular platform. Otherwise, I believe historically it has been up to the users that care about a platform to provide CI ressources for it. Do we have an alternative plan? -- Mehdi> > *From:* llvm-dev [mailto:llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org] *On Behalf Of *James > Y Knight via llvm-dev > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 23, 2019 10:36 AM > *To:* Krzysztof Parzyszek > *Cc:* llvm-dev > *Subject:* Re: [llvm-dev] [RFC] migrating past C++11 > > > > I'd expect that either we'll either workaround the issues (e.g. not start > using the broken feature), or else propose to require even newer > versions. And as now, discuss the expected tradeoff between new features > and requiring new compiler versions. > > > > On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 10:22 AM Krzysztof Parzyszek via llvm-dev < > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote: > > On 1/22/2019 3:44 PM, JF Bastien via llvm-dev wrote: > > One clear upside of dropping older toolchains: they don’t even support > > C++11 very well. > > Do we know that the proposed newer compilers support C++14 very well? > If we encounter issues with them, how are we going to deal with that? > > -Krzysztof > > -- > Qualcomm Innovation Center, Inc. is a member of Code Aurora Forum, > hosted by The Linux Foundation > _______________________________________________ > LLVM Developers mailing list > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org > http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev > > _______________________________________________ > LLVM Developers mailing list > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org > http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/attachments/20190123/b43df2ce/attachment.html>
If we claim to support a Thing, then we should accept patches to fix when the Thing breaks. Whether a bot verifies that the Thing works, is not really relevant; "support" means "we say this works and will fix it when it breaks." A bot is a service to the community in that it can tell you more-or-less promptly when you have broken a Thing. It is not the only way to determine that you have broken a Thing. However, it does tell you that you have broken a Thing that somebody thinks is worth putting up a bot to verify that it stays not-broken. Given the number of times lately that newcomers have had difficulty getting started (because some Thing we claim works, actually doesn't), I think it would be valuable to the ongoing health of the project to have bots verifying the particular Thing that is the minimum supported compiler versions. This doesn't mean I'm volunteering to provide that resource; neither does it mean I refuse to provide that resource. I am pointing out that it would be valuable generally, and as part of this longer-term goal to specify minimum compiler versions, it would be a Good Thing™ to be able to tell promptly when we've accidentally broken that, so that newcomers don't beat their head against a wall and go away disgusted with an open-source project that lies to them about supported configurations. --paulr From: Mehdi AMINI [mailto:joker.eph at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2019 6:19 PM To: Robinson, Paul Cc: James Y Knight; Krzysztof Parzyszek; llvm-dev Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] [RFC] migrating past C++11 On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 9:37 AM via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>> wrote: Please include MSVC in the table. While the picture on Windows is way less complicated than for *nix, it's still a platform and toolchain that matter to a number of us in the community. Separately, there was talk of needing to have bots that specifically use the oldest supported toolchains, otherwise we can't genuinely promise that they are really supported (don't want feature dependencies creeping in by accident). IMHO the difference between "supported" and having a bot validating the configuration is whether we accept patches to fix issues on this particular platform. Otherwise, I believe historically it has been up to the users that care about a platform to provide CI ressources for it. Do we have an alternative plan? -- Mehdi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/attachments/20190124/4ffa924c/attachment.html>
I re-read my email and I mistyped it (sorry was in a bus), what you wrote is exactly what I intended to mean. Thanks Paul. -- Mehdi On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 4:15 PM <paul.robinson at sony.com> wrote:> If we claim to support a Thing, then we should accept patches to fix when > the Thing breaks. Whether a bot verifies that the Thing works, is not > really relevant; "support" means "we say this works and will fix it when it > breaks." >> > A bot is a service to the community in that it can tell you more-or-less > promptly when you have broken a Thing. It is not the only way to determine > that you have broken a Thing. However, it does tell you that you have > broken a Thing that somebody thinks is worth putting up a bot to verify > that it stays not-broken. > > Given the number of times lately that newcomers have had difficulty > getting started (because some Thing we claim works, actually doesn't), I > think it would be valuable to the ongoing health of the project to have > bots verifying the particular Thing that is the minimum supported compiler > versions. This doesn't mean I'm volunteering to provide that resource; > neither does it mean I refuse to provide that resource. I am pointing out > that it would be valuable generally, and as part of this longer-term goal > to specify minimum compiler versions, it would be a Good Thing™ to be able > to tell promptly when we've accidentally broken that, so that newcomers > don't beat their head against a wall and go away disgusted with an > open-source project that lies to them about supported configurations. > > > > --paulr > > > > *From:* Mehdi AMINI [mailto:joker.eph at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 23, 2019 6:19 PM > *To:* Robinson, Paul > *Cc:* James Y Knight; Krzysztof Parzyszek; llvm-dev > *Subject:* Re: [llvm-dev] [RFC] migrating past C++11 > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 9:37 AM via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> > wrote: > > Please include MSVC in the table. While the picture on Windows is way less > complicated than for *nix, it's still a platform and toolchain that matter > to a number of us in the community. > > > > Separately, there was talk of needing to have bots that specifically use > the oldest supported toolchains, otherwise we can't genuinely promise that > they are really supported (don't want feature dependencies creeping in by > accident). > > > > IMHO the difference between "supported" and having a bot validating the > configuration is whether we accept patches to fix issues on this particular > platform. > > > > Otherwise, I believe historically it has been up to the users that care > about a platform to provide CI ressources for it. Do we have an alternative > plan? > > > > -- > > Mehdi > > >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/attachments/20190123/12a715d8/attachment.html>
> On Jan 23, 2019, at 4:15 PM, via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote: > > If we claim to support a Thing, then we should accept patches to fix when the Thing breaks. Whether a bot verifies that the Thing works, is not really relevant; "support" means "we say this works and will fix it when it breaks." > > A bot is a service to the community in that it can tell you more-or-less promptly when you have broken a Thing. It is not the only way to determine that you have broken a Thing. However, it does tell you that you have broken a Thing that somebody thinks is worth putting up a bot to verify that it stays not-broken. > Given the number of times lately that newcomers have had difficulty getting started (because some Thing we claim works, actually doesn't), I think it would be valuable to the ongoing health of the project to have bots verifying the particular Thing that is the minimum supported compiler versions. This doesn't mean I'm volunteering to provide that resource; neither does it mean I refuse to provide that resource. I am pointing out that it would be valuable generally, and as part of this longer-term goal to specify minimum compiler versions, it would be a Good Thing™ to be able to tell promptly when we've accidentally broken that, so that newcomers don't beat their head against a wall and go away disgusted with an open-source project that lies to them about supported configurations.I agree that what you describe would be good. I don’t see why it’s relevant to this discussion: we’re talking about changing the minimum toolchain version. Whether there are bots running the minimum toolchain version today is a fact disassociated from any proposed minimum change. Indeed, the policy we just adopted (and which I’m following) doesn’t mention bots. For sure if someone has a bot running older toolchains we want them to upgrade to the new minimum, so this RFC and soft-error will give them proper heads up. I hope they’ll chime in if they have concerns or suggestions. I therefore think that you want to fork this discussion point into a separate email thread, since it’ll help it move this RFC forward without distraction.> --paulr > <> > From: Mehdi AMINI [mailto:joker.eph at gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2019 6:19 PM > To: Robinson, Paul > Cc: James Y Knight; Krzysztof Parzyszek; llvm-dev > Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] [RFC] migrating past C++11 > > > > On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 9:37 AM via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>> wrote: > Please include MSVC in the table. While the picture on Windows is way less complicated than for *nix, it's still a platform and toolchain that matter to a number of us in the community. > > Separately, there was talk of needing to have bots that specifically use the oldest supported toolchains, otherwise we can't genuinely promise that they are really supported (don't want feature dependencies creeping in by accident). > > IMHO the difference between "supported" and having a bot validating the configuration is whether we accept patches to fix issues on this particular platform. > > Otherwise, I believe historically it has been up to the users that care about a platform to provide CI ressources for it. Do we have an alternative plan? > > -- > Mehdi > > _______________________________________________ > LLVM Developers mailing list > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/attachments/20190124/181c97f7/attachment.html>