llvm dev - Nov 2016 - RFC: Consider changing the semantics of 'fast' flag implying all fast-math-flags

Hi,

Thanks for the quick feedback.  I see your points, but I have a few
questions/comments.  I'll start at the end of the previous post:
> ...
> I think these are valuable problems to solve, but you should tackle them
piece by piece:
>
> 1) the clang part of overriding the individual FMF and emitting the right
IR is the first thing to fix.
> 2) the backend is still using the global UnsafeFPMath and it should be
killed.
I addressed this point (2) for the reciprocal aspect in the patch, but of course
that wasn't useful without doing something about (1).

Regarding (1), over at https://reviews.llvm.org/D26708#596610, David made the
same point that it should be done in Clang.  I can understand that, but I wonder
whether having the concept of the 'fast' flag in the IR that implies all
the other FMF makes sense?  I'm not seeing a good reason for it, but since
this is very new to me, I can easily imagine I'm missing the big picture.

For example, in the LLVM IR (http://llvm.org/docs/LangRef.html#fast-math-flags)
the fast-math flags 'nnan', 'ninf', 'nsz',
'arcp' and 'fast’ are defined.  Except for 'fast', each of
these has a fairly specific definition of what they mean.  For example, for
'arcp':

    arcp => "Allow optimizations to use the reciprocal of an argument
rather
             than perform division."

'fast' is unusual, in that it describes a fairly generic set of
aggressive floating-point optimizations:

    fast => "Allow algebraically equivalent transformations that may
dramatically
            change results in floating point (e.g. reassociate). This flag
implies
            all the others."

Very loosely, 'fast' means "all the aggressive FP-transformations
that are not controlled by one of the other 4, plus it implies all the other
4".  If for terminology, we call those additional aggressive optimizations
'aggr', then we have:

    'fast' == 'aggr' + 'nnan' + 'ninf' +
'nsz' + 'arcp'

So as I see it, if we want to disable only one of the other ones (like
'arcp', in my case), there isn't any way to express that with these
IR flags defined this way.  In short, we cannot turn on all the flags besides
'arcp'.  To do that, what we want is that somehow for the Clang
switches:

  '-ffast-math -fno-reciprocal-math'

to ultimately result in LLVM IR that has the following flags on in appropriate
FP ops:

  'aggr' + 'nnan' + 'ninf' + 'nsz'

But I don't see a way to express 'aggr' in the IR.  We could do
this, if we change the definition of the IR 'fast' flag to remove that
sentence about implying all the others:

    fast => "Allow algebraically equivalent transformations that may
dramatically
            change results in floating point (e.g. reassociate).

(If we do something like that, we may want to change the name from
'fast' to something else (like 'aggr'), to avoid tying it too
closely to the concept of the '-ffast-math' switch.)

As an aside, I don't know if the "reassociate" example is the only
other transformation that's allowed by 'fast' (I presume it
isn't), but I think reassociation would be better expressed by a separate
flag, which could then be controlled independently via
'-f[no]-associative-math' switch.  Not having that flag exist separately
in the FMF is the origin of PR27372.  But creating that flag and using it in the
appropriate places would still run into these problems of 'fast'
implying all the others, which would make it impossible to disable reassociation
while leaving all the other FMF transformations enabled.

To ask a concrete question using the current definition of 'fast' (which
includes enabling reassociation, as the LLVM IR documentation of FMF says), how
can we express in the IR that reciprocal-transformations are not allowed, but
reassociation is allowed?

So the bottom line is that I do see there are issues in Clang that are relevant.
But as long as 'fast' means "'aggr' plus all the other FMF
transformations", I don't see how we can effectively disable a subset
of those other FMF transformations (while leaving 'aggr'
transformations, such as reassociation, enabled).  With that in mind, my patch
took one step in having 'fast' no longer imply all the others.

Thanks,
-Warren
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> On Nov 15, 2016, at 11:59 PM, Ristow, Warren <warren.ristow at
sony.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi, <>
>  
> Thanks for the quick feedback.  I see your points, but I have a few
questions/comments.  I'll start at the end of the previous post:
>  
> > ...
> > I think these are valuable problems to solve, but you should tackle
them piece by piece:
> > 
> > 1) the clang part of overriding the individual FMF and emitting the
right IR is the first thing to fix.
> > 2) the backend is still using the global UnsafeFPMath and it should be
killed.
>  
> I addressed this point (2) for the reciprocal aspect in the patch, but of
course that wasn't useful without doing something about (1).
>  
> Regarding (1), over at https://reviews.llvm.org/D26708#596610
<https://reviews.llvm.org/D26708#596610>, David made the same point that
it should be done in Clang.  I can understand that, but I wonder whether having
the concept of the 'fast' flag in the IR that implies all the other FMF
makes sense?  I'm not seeing a good reason for it, but since this is very
new to me, I can easily imagine I'm missing the big picture.
>  
> For example, in the LLVM IR
(http://llvm.org/docs/LangRef.html#fast-math-flags
<http://llvm.org/docs/LangRef.html#fast-math-flags>) the fast-math flags
'nnan', 'ninf', 'nsz', 'arcp' and 'fast’ are
defined.  Except for 'fast', each of these has a fairly specific
definition of what they mean.  For example, for 'arcp':
>  
>     arcp => "Allow optimizations to use the reciprocal of an
argument rather
>              than perform division."
>  
> 'fast' is unusual, in that it describes a fairly generic set of
aggressive floating-point optimizations:
>  
>     fast => "Allow algebraically equivalent transformations that
may dramatically
>             change results in floating point (e.g. reassociate). This flag
implies
>             all the others."
>  
> Very loosely, 'fast' means "all the aggressive
FP-transformations that are not controlled by one of the other 4, plus it
implies all the other 4".  If for terminology, we call those additional
aggressive optimizations 'aggr', then we have:
>  
>     'fast' == 'aggr' + 'nnan' + 'ninf' +
'nsz' + 'arcp'
>  
> So as I see it, if we want to disable only one of the other ones (like
'arcp', in my case), there isn't any way to express that with these
IR flags defined this way.  In short, we cannot turn on all the flags besides
'arcp'.  To do that, what we want is that somehow for the Clang
switches:
>  
>   '-ffast-math -fno-reciprocal-math'
>  
> to ultimately result in LLVM IR that has the following flags on in
appropriate FP ops:
>  
>   'aggr' + 'nnan' + 'ninf' + ‘nsz'
Make sense, I missed that we can’t *subtract* from fast at the IR level.

I wouldn’t be opposed to have something along the line of “aggr”, but there is a
tradeoff: some transformation may be harder to guard with this model.

Maybe that could be a starting point: changing the “UnsafeAlgebra” bit in the
FMF to be “aggr” you mention and replace all the query to
FastMathFlags::UnsafeAlgebra() to return true if all the bits are set in the
Flags. This alone should be nothing more than a mechanical change I believe.
The important part is then auditing all the users of UnsafeAlgebra() in the
middle end and check if they can be “downgraded” to aggr safely: i.e. if they
don’t need aggr *and* another flag.

— 
Mehdi





>  
> But I don't see a way to express 'aggr' in the IR.  We could do
this, if we change the definition of the IR 'fast' flag to remove that
sentence about implying all the others:
>  
>     fast => "Allow algebraically equivalent transformations that
may dramatically
>             change results in floating point (e.g. reassociate).
>  
> (If we do something like that, we may want to change the name from
'fast' to something else (like 'aggr'), to avoid tying it too
closely to the concept of the '-ffast-math' switch.)
>  
> As an aside, I don't know if the "reassociate" example is the
only other transformation that's allowed by 'fast' (I presume it
isn't), but I think reassociation would be better expressed by a separate
flag, which could then be controlled independently via
'-f[no]-associative-math' switch.  Not having that flag exist separately
in the FMF is the origin of PR27372.  But creating that flag and using it in the
appropriate places would still run into these problems of 'fast'
implying all the others, which would make it impossible to disable reassociation
while leaving all the other FMF transformations enabled.
>  
> To ask a concrete question using the current definition of 'fast'
(which includes enabling reassociation, as the LLVM IR documentation of FMF
says), how can we express in the IR that reciprocal-transformations are not
allowed, but reassociation is allowed?
>  
> So the bottom line is that I do see there are issues in Clang that are
relevant.  But as long as 'fast' means "'aggr' plus all the
other FMF transformations", I don't see how we can effectively disable
a subset of those other FMF transformations (while leaving 'aggr'
transformations, such as reassociation, enabled).  With that in mind, my patch
took one step in having 'fast' no longer imply all the others.
>  
> Thanks,
> -Warren
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>> So as I see it, if we want to disable only one of the other ones (like
'arcp', in my
>> case), there isn't any way to express that with these IR flags
defined this way.  In
>> short, we cannot turn on all the flags besides 'arcp'.  To do
that, what we want is
>> that somehow for the Clang switches:
>>
>>   '-ffast-math -fno-reciprocal-math'
>>
>> to ultimately result in LLVM IR that has the following flags on in
appropriate FP ops:
>>
>>   'aggr' + 'nnan' + 'ninf' + ‘nsz'
>
> Make sense, I missed that we can’t *subtract* from fast at the IR level.
>
> I wouldn’t be opposed to have something along the line of “aggr”, but there
is a tradeoff: some transformation may be harder to guard with this model.
>
> Maybe that could be a starting point: changing the “UnsafeAlgebra” bit in
the FMF to be “aggr” you mention and replace all the query to
FastMathFlags::UnsafeAlgebra() to return true if all the bits are set in the
Flags. This alone should be nothing more than a mechanical change I believe.
That sounds good.  Thanks.

I just want to add that I view what Hal said as equivalent to my suggestion of
removing the "umbrella" aspect, and renaming it so something like
'aggr'.  For reference here, Hal's comments are:
>> I suspect that we want to start by getting rid of 'fast' on the
IR level and replacing
>> it with individual flags for the various optimization classes - Do we
have only
>> allowing reassociation and libm optimizations? Then we can readjust the
Clang flags in
>> a straightforward way.
If I had suggested 'reassoc_and_libm' instead of 'aggr', it
would be clearer that these are the same.

FTR, I didn't give serious thought to the name 'aggr'.  I'm just
trying to express the concept.  Others may have a good suggestion for the name. 
My main point is that I want the flag that currently is called 'fast' to
no longer imply the others.  It seems like that's a high level decision that
the community needs to agree on, and I'm not sure if this thread is enough
to give a green light to it.  The approach you describe above of having
FastMathFlags::UnsafeAlgebra() return true if all the bits are set sounds like
the right way to go in doing this.
> The important part is then auditing all the users of UnsafeAlgebra() in the
middle end
> and check if they can be “downgraded” to aggr safely: i.e. if they don’t
need aggr
> *and* another flag.
Yes, that makes perfect sense to me.

Thanks,
-Warren

From: mehdi.amini at apple.com [mailto:mehdi.amini at apple.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 8:55 AM
To: Ristow, Warren <warren.ristow at sony.com>
Cc: llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Consider changing the semantics of 'fast'
flag implying all fast-math-flags


On Nov 15, 2016, at 11:59 PM, Ristow, Warren <warren.ristow at
sony.com<mailto:warren.ristow at sony.com>> wrote:

Hi,

Thanks for the quick feedback.  I see your points, but I have a few
questions/comments.  I'll start at the end of the previous post:
> ...
> I think these are valuable problems to solve, but you should tackle them
piece by piece:
>
> 1) the clang part of overriding the individual FMF and emitting the right
IR is the first thing to fix.
> 2) the backend is still using the global UnsafeFPMath and it should be
killed.
I addressed this point (2) for the reciprocal aspect in the patch, but of course
that wasn't useful without doing something about (1).

Regarding (1), over at https://reviews.llvm.org/D26708#596610, David made the
same point that it should be done in Clang.  I can understand that, but I wonder
whether having the concept of the 'fast' flag in the IR that implies all
the other FMF makes sense?  I'm not seeing a good reason for it, but since
this is very new to me, I can easily imagine I'm missing the big picture.

For example, in the LLVM IR (http://llvm.org/docs/LangRef.html#fast-math-flags)
the fast-math flags 'nnan', 'ninf', 'nsz',
'arcp' and 'fast’ are defined.  Except for 'fast', each of
these has a fairly specific definition of what they mean.  For example, for
'arcp':

    arcp => "Allow optimizations to use the reciprocal of an argument
rather
             than perform division."

'fast' is unusual, in that it describes a fairly generic set of
aggressive floating-point optimizations:

    fast => "Allow algebraically equivalent transformations that may
dramatically
            change results in floating point (e.g. reassociate). This flag
implies
            all the others."

Very loosely, 'fast' means "all the aggressive FP-transformations
that are not controlled by one of the other 4, plus it implies all the other
4".  If for terminology, we call those additional aggressive optimizations
'aggr', then we have:

    'fast' == 'aggr' + 'nnan' + 'ninf' +
'nsz' + 'arcp'

So as I see it, if we want to disable only one of the other ones (like
'arcp', in my case), there isn't any way to express that with these
IR flags defined this way.  In short, we cannot turn on all the flags besides
'arcp'.  To do that, what we want is that somehow for the Clang
switches:

  '-ffast-math -fno-reciprocal-math'

to ultimately result in LLVM IR that has the following flags on in appropriate
FP ops:

  'aggr' + 'nnan' + 'ninf' + ‘nsz'

Make sense, I missed that we can’t *subtract* from fast at the IR level.

I wouldn’t be opposed to have something along the line of “aggr”, but there is a
tradeoff: some transformation may be harder to guard with this model.

Maybe that could be a starting point: changing the “UnsafeAlgebra” bit in the
FMF to be “aggr” you mention and replace all the query to
FastMathFlags::UnsafeAlgebra() to return true if all the bits are set in the
Flags. This alone should be nothing more than a mechanical change I believe.
The important part is then auditing all the users of UnsafeAlgebra() in the
middle end and check if they can be “downgraded” to aggr safely: i.e. if they
don’t need aggr *and* another flag.

—
Mehdi








But I don't see a way to express 'aggr' in the IR.  We could do
this, if we change the definition of the IR 'fast' flag to remove that
sentence about implying all the others:

    fast => "Allow algebraically equivalent transformations that may
dramatically
            change results in floating point (e.g. reassociate).

(If we do something like that, we may want to change the name from
'fast' to something else (like 'aggr'), to avoid tying it too
closely to the concept of the '-ffast-math' switch.)

As an aside, I don't know if the "reassociate" example is the only
other transformation that's allowed by 'fast' (I presume it
isn't), but I think reassociation would be better expressed by a separate
flag, which could then be controlled independently via
'-f[no]-associative-math' switch.  Not having that flag exist separately
in the FMF is the origin of PR27372.  But creating that flag and using it in the
appropriate places would still run into these problems of 'fast'
implying all the others, which would make it impossible to disable reassociation
while leaving all the other FMF transformations enabled.

To ask a concrete question using the current definition of 'fast' (which
includes enabling reassociation, as the LLVM IR documentation of FMF says), how
can we express in the IR that reciprocal-transformations are not allowed, but
reassociation is allowed?

So the bottom line is that I do see there are issues in Clang that are relevant.
But as long as 'fast' means "'aggr' plus all the other FMF
transformations", I don't see how we can effectively disable a subset
of those other FMF transformations (while leaving 'aggr'
transformations, such as reassociation, enabled).  With that in mind, my patch
took one step in having 'fast' no longer imply all the others.

Thanks,
-Warren

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I don’t really like the idea of updating checks of UnsafeAlgebra() to depend on
all of the other flags.  It seems like it would be preferable to look at each
optimization and figure out which flags it actually requires.  I suspect that in
many cases the “new” flag (i.e. allowing reassociation, etc.) will be what is
actually needed anyway.

I would be inclined to agree with Niolai’s suggestion of combining all the flags
related to value safety, except that Warren’s proposal that started this
discussion seems to imply that he has a use case that requires reciprocals to be
turned off separately.

-Andy

From: llvm-dev [mailto:llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org] On Behalf Of Mehdi
Amini via llvm-dev
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 8:55 AM
To: Ristow, Warren <warren.ristow at sony.com>
Cc: llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Consider changing the semantics of 'fast'
flag implying all fast-math-flags


On Nov 15, 2016, at 11:59 PM, Ristow, Warren <warren.ristow at
sony.com<mailto:warren.ristow at sony.com>> wrote:

Hi,

Thanks for the quick feedback.  I see your points, but I have a few
questions/comments.  I'll start at the end of the previous post:
> ...
> I think these are valuable problems to solve, but you should tackle them
piece by piece:
>
> 1) the clang part of overriding the individual FMF and emitting the right
IR is the first thing to fix.
> 2) the backend is still using the global UnsafeFPMath and it should be
killed.
I addressed this point (2) for the reciprocal aspect in the patch, but of course
that wasn't useful without doing something about (1).

Regarding (1), over at https://reviews.llvm.org/D26708#596610, David made the
same point that it should be done in Clang.  I can understand that, but I wonder
whether having the concept of the 'fast' flag in the IR that implies all
the other FMF makes sense?  I'm not seeing a good reason for it, but since
this is very new to me, I can easily imagine I'm missing the big picture.

For example, in the LLVM IR (http://llvm.org/docs/LangRef.html#fast-math-flags)
the fast-math flags 'nnan', 'ninf', 'nsz',
'arcp' and 'fast’ are defined.  Except for 'fast', each of
these has a fairly specific definition of what they mean.  For example, for
'arcp':

    arcp => "Allow optimizations to use the reciprocal of an argument
rather
             than perform division."

'fast' is unusual, in that it describes a fairly generic set of
aggressive floating-point optimizations:

    fast => "Allow algebraically equivalent transformations that may
dramatically
            change results in floating point (e.g. reassociate). This flag
implies
            all the others."

Very loosely, 'fast' means "all the aggressive FP-transformations
that are not controlled by one of the other 4, plus it implies all the other
4".  If for terminology, we call those additional aggressive optimizations
'aggr', then we have:

    'fast' == 'aggr' + 'nnan' + 'ninf' +
'nsz' + 'arcp'

So as I see it, if we want to disable only one of the other ones (like
'arcp', in my case), there isn't any way to express that with these
IR flags defined this way.  In short, we cannot turn on all the flags besides
'arcp'.  To do that, what we want is that somehow for the Clang
switches:

  '-ffast-math -fno-reciprocal-math'

to ultimately result in LLVM IR that has the following flags on in appropriate
FP ops:

  'aggr' + 'nnan' + 'ninf' + ‘nsz'

Make sense, I missed that we can’t *subtract* from fast at the IR level.

I wouldn’t be opposed to have something along the line of “aggr”, but there is a
tradeoff: some transformation may be harder to guard with this model.

Maybe that could be a starting point: changing the “UnsafeAlgebra” bit in the
FMF to be “aggr” you mention and replace all the query to
FastMathFlags::UnsafeAlgebra() to return true if all the bits are set in the
Flags. This alone should be nothing more than a mechanical change I believe.
The important part is then auditing all the users of UnsafeAlgebra() in the
middle end and check if they can be “downgraded” to aggr safely: i.e. if they
don’t need aggr *and* another flag.

—
Mehdi








But I don't see a way to express 'aggr' in the IR.  We could do
this, if we change the definition of the IR 'fast' flag to remove that
sentence about implying all the others:

    fast => "Allow algebraically equivalent transformations that may
dramatically
            change results in floating point (e.g. reassociate).

(If we do something like that, we may want to change the name from
'fast' to something else (like 'aggr'), to avoid tying it too
closely to the concept of the '-ffast-math' switch.)

As an aside, I don't know if the "reassociate" example is the only
other transformation that's allowed by 'fast' (I presume it
isn't), but I think reassociation would be better expressed by a separate
flag, which could then be controlled independently via
'-f[no]-associative-math' switch.  Not having that flag exist separately
in the FMF is the origin of PR27372.  But creating that flag and using it in the
appropriate places would still run into these problems of 'fast'
implying all the others, which would make it impossible to disable reassociation
while leaving all the other FMF transformations enabled.

To ask a concrete question using the current definition of 'fast' (which
includes enabling reassociation, as the LLVM IR documentation of FMF says), how
can we express in the IR that reciprocal-transformations are not allowed, but
reassociation is allowed?

So the bottom line is that I do see there are issues in Clang that are relevant.
But as long as 'fast' means "'aggr' plus all the other FMF
transformations", I don't see how we can effectively disable a subset
of those other FMF transformations (while leaving 'aggr'
transformations, such as reassociation, enabled).  With that in mind, my patch
took one step in having 'fast' no longer imply all the others.

Thanks,
-Warren

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