llvm dev - Oct 2015 - RFC: Introducing an LLVM Community Code of Conduct

> On Oct 13, 2015, at 10:23 AM, Bill Kelly via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> 
> Renato Golin via llvm-dev wrote:
>> On 13 October 2015 at 17:16, Kuperstein, Michael M via llvm-dev
>> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>> The FreeBSD CoC is, IMHO, much better in this respect (
https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html ).
>> 
>> Nice! This is so succinct and beautiful!
>> 
>> It doesn't need an overseeing foundation to take opaque decisions,
and
>> focus on what's really important: the code.
>> 
>> I particularly like "Do not make it personal. Do not take it
>> personally.". It means *so* much in such a short sentence.
> 
> Agreed!
No offense to the FreeBSD CoC, but I really dislike the line “Do not take it
personally”. Quite often when someone is offended, the offender will justify
their statements by saying “You are just taking it personally”. I find this
frequently used towards women (not saying this community necessarily).

I would prefer this not used in our CoC. 

-Tanya

On 13 October 2015 at 20:29, Tanya Lattner <tanyalattner at llvm.org>
wrote:
> No offense to the FreeBSD CoC, but I really dislike the line “Do not take
it personally”. Quite often when someone is offended, the offender will justify
their statements by saying “You are just taking it personally”. I find this
frequently used towards women (not saying this community necessarily).
And quite often the "offender" had no idea he/she offended, and the
"offended" will justify strong measures without even asking.

There are always two sides of the same coin. You can't have one and
not the other.

All this is saying is that, by not taking offence, you will try to
understand the technical side *first*. If there isn't any, then you
will try to identify malice *second*. Only when you're sure there IS
offence, you can take actions (which normally should resort to
ignoring the argument).

cheers,
--renato

On Oct 13, 2015, at 2:29 PM, Tanya Lattner via llvm-dev wrote:
>
>> On Oct 13, 2015, at 10:23 AM, Bill Kelly via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org
>> > wrote:
>>
>> Renato Golin via llvm-dev wrote:
>>> On 13 October 2015 at 17:16, Kuperstein, Michael M via llvm-dev
>>> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>>> The FreeBSD CoC is, IMHO, much better in this respect (
https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html
>>>>  ).
>>>
>>> Nice! This is so succinct and beautiful!
>>>
>>> It doesn't need an overseeing foundation to take opaque
decisions,
>>> and
>>> focus on what's really important: the code.
>>>
>>> I particularly like "Do not make it personal. Do not take it
>>> personally.". It means *so* much in such a short sentence.
>>
>> Agreed!
>
> No offense to the FreeBSD CoC, but I really dislike the line “Do not  
> take it personally”. Quite often when someone is offended, the  
> offender will justify their statements by saying “You are just  
> taking it personally”. I find this frequently used towards women  
> (not saying this community necessarily).
>
> I would prefer this not used in our CoC.
>
> -Tanya

I agree with the sentiment on this, however I also agree with the  
others that overcodifying the CoC would lead to picking apart to  
justify any taking of offense.

To me, admittedly a first world, middle class, white male who is  
intentionally blind to most perceived social offenses (often times,  
though not always, caused by someone simply not getting their way, see  
various lawsuits that were thrown out for being completely frivolous),  
I feel like a CoC should revolve around the one axiom of "Act like an  
adult, and follow the Golden Rule (treat others as you want to be  
treated)".  There are a million and one ways of codifying this, but  
the more specific, the more ripe it is for abuse by those who want to  
feel slighted.

- Justin

Tanya Lattner wrote:
>> On Oct 13, 2015, at 10:23 AM, Bill Kelly via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>
>> Renato Golin via llvm-dev wrote:
>>> On 13 October 2015 at 17:16, Kuperstein, Michael M via llvm-dev
>>> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>>> The FreeBSD CoC is, IMHO, much better in this respect (
https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html ).
>>> Nice! This is so succinct and beautiful!
>>>
>>> It doesn't need an overseeing foundation to take opaque
decisions, and
>>> focus on what's really important: the code.
>>>
>>> I particularly like "Do not make it personal. Do not take it
>>> personally.". It means *so* much in such a short sentence.
>>
>> Agreed!
> 
> No offense to the FreeBSD CoC, but I really dislike the line
> “Do not take it personally”. Quite often when someone is offended,
> the offender will justify their statements by saying “You are just
> taking it personally”. I find this frequently used towards women
> (not saying this community necessarily).
I'd agree, "Do not take it personally" could in certain elocutions
come off as vaguely patronizing.  But I think it does hint at a core
concept, which the late Christopher Hitchens expressed as follows:

  When someone says "that's offensive" I respond "I'm
still waiting
  to hear your argument."

I would hope to see the above enshrined as a core sentiment in any
Code of Conduct purporting to address speech on the Internet.

Along with R. W. Emerson's wonderful

  "Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am
  persecuted whenever I am contradicted."


Over the past five odd years, I've seen a certain contingent wedge
itself into multiple communities I care about, and attempt to impose
its Code of Conduct -- for the betterment of everyone, dontcha know,
because words and ideas might make someone feel unsafe.

The result has been near-ironic levels of attempted censorship,
followed by a fracturing of those communities.

Today, hardly a week goes by without another student union at a
university banning a publication or disinviting a speaker because
the mere ideas they *might* express are at odds with the Code of
Conduct and are deemed in violation of their "safe space" policy.

It may be that conversations within the LLVM community, with its
speech focused specifically on software, might avoid the type of
censorious impulse that has fractured other communities.

Nevertheless, I remain extraordinarily wary of any Code of Conduct
which seeks to place much value on the notion that someone might be
'offended'.


Regards,

Bill

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 2:02 AM Bill Kelly via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> Tanya Lattner wrote:
> >> On Oct 13, 2015, at 10:23 AM, Bill Kelly via llvm-dev <
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Renato Golin via llvm-dev wrote:
> >>> On 13 October 2015 at 17:16, Kuperstein, Michael M via
llvm-dev
> >>> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> >>>> The FreeBSD CoC is, IMHO, much better in this respect (
> https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html ).
> >>> Nice! This is so succinct and beautiful!
> >>>
> >>> It doesn't need an overseeing foundation to take opaque
decisions, and
> >>> focus on what's really important: the code.
> >>>
> >>> I particularly like "Do not make it personal. Do not take
it
> >>> personally.". It means *so* much in such a short
sentence.
> >>
> >> Agreed!
> >
> > No offense to the FreeBSD CoC, but I really dislike the line
> > “Do not take it personally”. Quite often when someone is offended,
> > the offender will justify their statements by saying “You are just
> > taking it personally”. I find this frequently used towards women
> > (not saying this community necessarily).
>
> I'd agree, "Do not take it personally" could in certain
elocutions
> come off as vaguely patronizing.  But I think it does hint at a core
> concept, which the late Christopher Hitchens expressed as follows:
>
>   When someone says "that's offensive" I respond
"I'm still waiting
>   to hear your argument."
>
> I would hope to see the above enshrined as a core sentiment in any
> Code of Conduct purporting to address speech on the Internet.
>
The LLVM community is not the Internet at large and need not be. I think
there are many good forums for uncensored debate of controversial and
sensitive topics, but I do *not* think that this particular open source
software project is such a forum. This is a community for technical
discussion about rather mundane and boring topics such as compilers and
software.

As such, I think we can and should (and have historically for all of the
near decade I have interacted with this community) prioritize differently.
We should be polite and respectful, and insist upon that from others.

The correct response to someone on an LLVM forum telling you "that's
offensive" is some variation on "I'm sorry" and your very
best attempt
change how you are communicating to avoid repeating the incident.
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