llvm dev - Nov 2013 - [LLVMdev] [cfe-dev] RFC: A proposal to move toward using C++11 features in LLVM & Clang / bounding support for old host compilers

>> It is special, sadly, and I'm not talking about C++11 support only,
but
>> about the policies MS follows which too often makes very inconvenient
>> (or even impossible) to upgrade to newer VS versions. The latest
example
>> that comes to mind was the release of VS2012: they removed Windows XP
>> support, as if upgrading the OS is a non-issue if you ask for it to
your
>> users on a polite tone. An uproar followed and they backpedaled on a
>> service pack some months later, but that not always happens.
>
> I might be mistaken, but to compile for WinXP on VS 2012 you have to switch
the Platform Toolset and AFAICT that means it will essentially be using the VS
2010 compiler and libraries. So when it comes to using newer C++ functionality
you will still be stuck on the VS 2010 level even if you are using VS 2012 and
if you are using any VS2012 improvements you will not be able to compile for XP.
>
> Basically (again: AFAICT): if you want clang to be compiled for WinXP using
VS, the C++ features of VS 2010 are a hard limit and that will not change.
A different issue than what VS 2012 can _target_, is what VS 2012 can
_run on_: it cannot run on Windows XP.

Say what you want about how old Windows XP is and how close it is to
being end-of-life'd by Microsoft, at the end of the day it still
commands one third (!) of all desktop operating system market share [1].

So, by dropping support for VS 2010, you will be making any developer
who uses Windows XP - potentially a large number of developers given
Windows XP's still huge market share - unable to build clang.

Regards,
Nate

[1]
http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0

On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 6:11 PM, Nathan Ridge <zeratul976 at hotmail.com>
wrote:
> >> It is special, sadly, and I'm not talking about C++11 support
only, but
> >> about the policies MS follows which too often makes very
inconvenient
> >> (or even impossible) to upgrade to newer VS versions. The latest
example
> >> that comes to mind was the release of VS2012: they removed Windows
XP
> >> support, as if upgrading the OS is a non-issue if you ask for it
to your
> >> users on a polite tone. An uproar followed and they backpedaled on
a
> >> service pack some months later, but that not always happens.
> >
> > I might be mistaken, but to compile for WinXP on VS 2012 you have to
> switch the Platform Toolset and AFAICT that means it will essentially be
> using the VS 2010 compiler and libraries. So when it comes to using newer
> C++ functionality you will still be stuck on the VS 2010 level even if you
> are using VS 2012 and if you are using any VS2012 improvements you will not
> be able to compile for XP.
> >
> > Basically (again: AFAICT): if you want clang to be compiled for WinXP
> using VS, the C++ features of VS 2010 are a hard limit and that will not
> change.
>
> A different issue than what VS 2012 can _target_, is what VS 2012 can
> _run on_: it cannot run on Windows XP.
>
> Say what you want about how old Windows XP is and how close it is to
> being end-of-life'd by Microsoft, at the end of the day it still
> commands one third (!) of all desktop operating system market share [1].
>
> So, by dropping support for VS 2010, you will be making any developer
> who uses Windows XP - potentially a large number of developers given
> Windows XP's still huge market share - unable to build clang.
>
I don't see any reason to believe that developers are evenly distributed
across the market of desktops, much less LLVM developers.

I also have heard no LLVM developers jump and down saying this would block
them from using LLVM, so I don't think is an actual concern.
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> So, by dropping support for VS 2010, you will be making any developer
> who uses Windows XP - potentially a large number of developers given
> Windows XP's still huge market share - unable to build clang.
We could create some special bonware that installs 7 on any XP machine
it encounters. Volunteers?

Tim.

>> A different issue than what VS 2012 can _target_, is what VS 2012 can 
>> _run on_: it cannot run on Windows XP. 
>>  
>> Say what you want about how old Windows XP is and how close it is to 
>> being end-of-life'd by Microsoft, at the end of the day it still 
>> commands one third (!) of all desktop operating system market share
[1].
>>  
>> So, by dropping support for VS 2010, you will be making any developer 
>> who uses Windows XP - potentially a large number of developers given 
>> Windows XP's still huge market share - unable to build clang. 
>  
> I don't see any reason to believe that developers are evenly  
> distributed across the market of desktops, much less LLVM developers. 
Nor do I. But one third of the market is a *lot*, and even if developers
are a lot more likely to use newer operating system than your average
user, that's still potentially a lot of developers.
> I also have heard no LLVM developers jump and down saying this would  
> block them from using LLVM, so I don't think is an actual concern.
I am a potential LLVM developer, and it would block me.

Regards,
Nate

>> So, by dropping support for VS 2010, you will be making any developer
>> who uses Windows XP - potentially a large number of developers given
>> Windows XP's still huge market share - unable to build clang.
>
> We could create some special bonware that installs 7 on any XP machine
> it encounters. Volunteers?
Not everyone thinks that such a thing would be bonware [1].
 
Regards,
Nate
 
[1] http://en.windows7sins.org/

Tim Northover <t.p.northover at gmail.com> writes:
>> So, by dropping support for VS 2010, you will be making any developer
>> who uses Windows XP - potentially a large number of developers given
>> Windows XP's still huge market share - unable to build clang.
>
> We could create some special bonware that installs 7 on any XP machine
> it encounters. Volunteers?
Alternatively those developers working on Windows XP can install
MinGW-w64:

http://mingw-w64.sourceforge.net/