On 06/24/2013 06:27 PM, Thomas R?cker wrote:> Just going to drop my 0,02? here too. > > On 24 June 2013 16:47, Daniel James <daniel.james at sourcefabric.org> wrote: >> Hi Greg, >> >>> The open source AAC/HE-AAC encoders offer pretty poor audio quality. >>> Sometimes you really do get what you pay for, and this is a perfect example. >> An alternative explanation might be that open source developers were not >> particularly motivated to work on improving AAC encoders, because of >> difficulties experienced when trying to distribute patent-encumbered code. > This is at least the explanation why the earlier sent patch by Paul is > unlikely to get merged in mainline libshout, as helpful and valuable > it might be for some people. We encourage open and patent-problem-free > formats.My opinion remains unchanged on this topic, but to help defuse this matter here is my diplomatic proposal of a possible way forward: Patches that directly, openly target problematic formats, codecs, etc. will still be unlikely to be merged (not a categoric no, very well justified exceptions may be made, e.g. to ensure backwards compatibility, but certainly not a blanket approval). Generic patches supplied by the community that target the 'pass through' legacy functionality of Icecast will be merged pending usual review. In the causa at hand, think 'allow a mime-type to be passed to libshout' this would also address codec extensions: 'audio/ogg; codecs=opus' and be generally useful. We focus our development efforts on matters aligned with the Xiph mission statement: "media technology that is open and free for anyone to use". When it comes to legacy functionality we do our best not to break things, but we expect and welcome the interested community to report problems AND supply patches where necessary. I would like to further elaborate why I think such a direction is necessary. We are carried by many downstream projects, including Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, etc. Some of which have quite strict policies when it comes to copyrights, patents and various definitions of 'free'. We have so far had no significant problems with regard to that, as opposed to other projects that were, removed, patched or otherwise affected. Also being agnostic of problematic technologies minimizes possible legal attack surface against each and every contributor to our projects. Cheers Thomas
On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 2:36 PM, "Thomas B. R?cker" <thomas at ruecker.fi>wrote:> Generic patches supplied by the community that target the 'pass through' > legacy functionality of Icecast will be merged pending usual review. In > the causa at hand, think 'allow a mime-type to be passed to libshout' > this would also address codec extensions: 'audio/ogg; codecs=opus' and > be generally useful. > >This sounds quite reasonable. But the way libshout is designed entangles it with the formats it supports. It's not possible to set a custom mimetype. It's not possible to provide a custom shout_open_XXX function for a stream -- instead you have to call shout_set_format with a SHOUT_FORMAT_XXX which has a fixed list of shout_open_XXX functions that it calls. Would you support patches that make this generic to allow formats that libshout does not explicitly support? That way all the AAC code (open/send/close stream) that e.g. this<https://trac.xiph.org/attachment/ticket/1872/libshout-2.3.0-aac-mime-aim-irc-icq.v2.patch> patch adds could live outside of libshout. For example, what if we added a SHOUT_FORMAT_CUSTOM format for which you provide a custom shout_open_XXX function and a custom mime type? Warm regards, RJ Ryan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/icecast-dev/attachments/20130625/041a4e25/attachment.htm
Hi, 2013/6/25 "Thomas B. R?cker" <thomas at ruecker.fi>:> On 06/24/2013 06:27 PM, Thomas R?cker wrote: >> Just going to drop my 0,02? here too. >> >> On 24 June 2013 16:47, Daniel James <daniel.james at sourcefabric.org> wrote: >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>>> The open source AAC/HE-AAC encoders offer pretty poor audio quality. >>>> Sometimes you really do get what you pay for, and this is a perfect example. >>> An alternative explanation might be that open source developers were not >>> particularly motivated to work on improving AAC encoders, because of >>> difficulties experienced when trying to distribute patent-encumbered code. >> This is at least the explanation why the earlier sent patch by Paul is >> unlikely to get merged in mainline libshout, as helpful and valuable >> it might be for some people. We encourage open and patent-problem-free >> formats. > > My opinion remains unchanged on this topic, but to help defuse this > matter here is my diplomatic proposal of a possible way forward: > > Patches that directly, openly target problematic formats, codecs, etc. > will still be unlikely to be merged (not a categoric no, very well > justified exceptions may be made, e.g. to ensure backwards > compatibility, but certainly not a blanket approval). > > Generic patches supplied by the community that target the 'pass through' > legacy functionality of Icecast will be merged pending usual review. In > the causa at hand, think 'allow a mime-type to be passed to libshout' > this would also address codec extensions: 'audio/ogg; codecs=opus' and > be generally useful. > > We focus our development efforts on matters aligned with the Xiph > mission statement: "media technology that is open and free for anyone to > use". When it comes to legacy functionality we do our best not to break > things, but we expect and welcome the interested community to report > problems AND supply patches where necessary. > > > I would like to further elaborate why I think such a direction is > necessary. We are carried by many downstream projects, including Debian, > Ubuntu, Fedora, etc. Some of which have quite strict policies when it > comes to copyrights, patents and various definitions of 'free'. We have > so far had no significant problems with regard to that, as opposed to > other projects that were, removed, patched or otherwise affected. > Also being agnostic of problematic technologies minimizes possible legal > attack surface against each and every contributor to our projects.Thanks for your feedback, Thomas. From my previous contribution, I gather that we have a different standpoint on the matter and I appreciate that your shared yours. Back 3 years ago, when I realized that our patch would not be accepted, I decided to go on and implement a new library that we now use instead of libshout. It has never been a big deal and I am glad that we are still able to benefit from icecast because that is a project that I support and respect. We also have always supported as many available xiph format as possible in liquidsoap and I wrote most of this support myself. That being said, I would like to point that there seems to be a little under-statement behind the "backward" compatibility that you mentioned. The so-called "backward compatibility" support may as well be renamed "mp3 format" support, because that is what we are talking about. And right now, judging from the stats on dir.xiph.org, there is stunning ratio of one vorbis stream per 50 mp3 stream... I think xiph formats are really innovant and I love to experience with them and to support and promote them. However, it is also fair to say that without mp3 support, icecast would bare almost no relevance to the streaming ecosystem. This is a perfect example of the point I was trying to convey in my previous email: without mp3 support, icecast wouldn't be used and, thus, support for xiph and other open formats would be lost for all its users. I believe that AAC(+) falls in the same line of though. It is the de-facto format for mobile streaming and is widely supported. Having readily available support for this format will increase the adoption of icecast and, through this, the availability of alternative, open-source, solutions. Romain
Hi, On 25 June 2013 22:56, Romain Beauxis <toots at rastageeks.org> wrote:> Hi, > > 2013/6/25 "Thomas B. R?cker" <thomas at ruecker.fi>: >> On 06/24/2013 06:27 PM, Thomas R?cker wrote: >>> Just going to drop my 0,02? here too. >>> >>> On 24 June 2013 16:47, Daniel James <daniel.james at sourcefabric.org> wrote: >>>> Hi Greg, >>>> >>>>> The open source AAC/HE-AAC encoders offer pretty poor audio quality. >>>>> Sometimes you really do get what you pay for, and this is a perfect example. >>>> An alternative explanation might be that open source developers were not >>>> particularly motivated to work on improving AAC encoders, because of >>>> difficulties experienced when trying to distribute patent-encumbered code. >>> This is at least the explanation why the earlier sent patch by Paul is >>> unlikely to get merged in mainline libshout, as helpful and valuable >>> it might be for some people. We encourage open and patent-problem-free >>> formats. >> >> My opinion remains unchanged on this topic, but to help defuse this >> matter here is my diplomatic proposal of a possible way forward: >> >> Patches that directly, openly target problematic formats, codecs, etc. >> will still be unlikely to be merged (not a categoric no, very well >> justified exceptions may be made, e.g. to ensure backwards >> compatibility, but certainly not a blanket approval). >> >> Generic patches supplied by the community that target the 'pass through' >> legacy functionality of Icecast will be merged pending usual review. In >> the causa at hand, think 'allow a mime-type to be passed to libshout' >> this would also address codec extensions: 'audio/ogg; codecs=opus' and >> be generally useful. >> >> We focus our development efforts on matters aligned with the Xiph >> mission statement: "media technology that is open and free for anyone to >> use". When it comes to legacy functionality we do our best not to break >> things, but we expect and welcome the interested community to report >> problems AND supply patches where necessary. >> >> >> I would like to further elaborate why I think such a direction is >> necessary. We are carried by many downstream projects, including Debian, >> Ubuntu, Fedora, etc. Some of which have quite strict policies when it >> comes to copyrights, patents and various definitions of 'free'. We have >> so far had no significant problems with regard to that, as opposed to >> other projects that were, removed, patched or otherwise affected. >> Also being agnostic of problematic technologies minimizes possible legal >> attack surface against each and every contributor to our projects. > > Thanks for your feedback, Thomas. From my previous contribution, I > gather that we have a different standpoint on the matter and I > appreciate that your shared yours. > > Back 3 years ago, when I realized that our patch would not be > accepted, I decided to go on and implement a new library that we now > use instead of libshout. It has never been a big deal and I am glad > that we are still able to benefit from icecast because that is a > project that I support and respect. We also have always supported as > many available xiph format as possible in liquidsoap and I wrote most > of this support myself. > > That being said, I would like to point that there seems to be a little > under-statement behind the "backward" compatibility that you > mentioned. The so-called "backward compatibility" support may as well > be renamed "mp3 format" support, because that is what we are talking > about. And right now, judging from the stats on dir.xiph.org, there is > stunning ratio of one vorbis stream per 50 mp3 stream...