On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:26 AM Ian Lepore <ian at freebsd.org> wrote:> On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 10:21 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan <michelle at sorbs.net> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > tech-lists wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common it is. > > > > > > > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to Brooks. Brooks as > > > far as I can see is just the messenger. > > > > > Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I guessed wrong > here > > in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I knew it was > > popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's popularity had > waned > > much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems with rl in them > > around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the SBCs we used > at > > Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old technology > because > > that market segment wanted longevity of spare availability...). > > > > Warner > > 11 years later, we (Timing Solutions, now a division of Microchip) are > still using SBCs with rl(4) hardware and still shipping software > updates with that driver built into the kernel. We build systems with a > lifespan in the field of 20 years or more, and the stability and > compatibility across OS upgrades over that kind of span is a BIG reason > to use freebsd rather than linux for such things. >OK. I'd have thought those SBCs would have gone out of production years ago.... It's a good datapoint to know that there's multiple users of FreeBSD using these parts in products that are still shipping. That's a clear and compelling benefit to the project that offsets the efforts that it's taken them to keep things current with rl. In this case, though, rl is off the list, so that hardware should still be good. The only other SBC I was aware of at Timing Solutions was one that had an 'ed' chip on it (an ISA realtek part IIRC) that was used in around 2001, but in a 'one off' custom setup that I don't think will ever be upgraded.... But I have to ask since I know how things worked during my time there and systems that 'would never be upgraded' often times were later... I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. Warner
On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 11:38 -0600, Warner Losh wrote:> On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:26 AM Ian Lepore <ian at freebsd.org> wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 10:21 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tech-lists wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common it is. > > > > > > > > > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to Brooks.??Brooks as > > > > far as I can see is just the messenger. > > > > > > > Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I guessed wrong > > here > > > > > > in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I knew it was > > > popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's popularity had > > waned > > > > > > much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems with rl in them > > > around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the SBCs we used > > at > > > > > > Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old technology > > because > > > > > > that market segment wanted longevity of spare availability...). > > > > > > Warner > > 11 years later, we (Timing Solutions, now a division of Microchip) are > > still using SBCs with rl(4) hardware and still shipping software > > updates with that driver built into the kernel. We build systems with a > > lifespan in the field of 20 years or more, and the stability and > > compatibility across OS upgrades over that kind of span is a BIG reason > > to use freebsd rather than linux for such things. > > > OK. I'd have thought those SBCs would have gone out of production years > ago.... It's a good datapoint to know that there's multiple users of > FreeBSD using these parts in products that are still shipping. That's a > clear and compelling benefit to the project that offsets the efforts that > it's taken them to keep things current with rl. > > In this case, though, rl is off the list, so that hardware should still be > good. The only other SBC I was aware of at Timing Solutions was one that > had an 'ed' chip on it (an ISA realtek part IIRC) that was used in around > 2001, but in a 'one off' custom setup that I don't think will ever be > upgraded.... But I have to ask since I know how things worked during my > time there and systems that 'would never be upgraded' often times were > later... > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. > > WarnerI checked all our various kernel configs, and the only one on the list we still use appears to be rl. One driver I was surprised to see was not on the list was vte. So I'll just preemptively mention that we do use that one too. -- Ian
On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:47 AM Ian Lepore <ian at freebsd.org> wrote:> On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 11:38 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:26 AM Ian Lepore <ian at freebsd.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 10:21 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tech-lists wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common > it is. > > > > > > > > > > > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to Brooks. Brooks > as > > > > > far as I can see is just the messenger. > > > > > > > > > Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I guessed wrong > > > here > > > > > > > > in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I knew it > was > > > > popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's popularity had > > > waned > > > > > > > > much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems with rl in > them > > > > around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the SBCs we > used > > > at > > > > > > > > Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old technology > > > because > > > > > > > > that market segment wanted longevity of spare availability...). > > > > > > > > Warner > > > 11 years later, we (Timing Solutions, now a division of Microchip) are > > > still using SBCs with rl(4) hardware and still shipping software > > > updates with that driver built into the kernel. We build systems with a > > > lifespan in the field of 20 years or more, and the stability and > > > compatibility across OS upgrades over that kind of span is a BIG reason > > > to use freebsd rather than linux for such things. > > > > > OK. I'd have thought those SBCs would have gone out of production years > > ago.... It's a good datapoint to know that there's multiple users of > > FreeBSD using these parts in products that are still shipping. That's a > > clear and compelling benefit to the project that offsets the efforts that > > it's taken them to keep things current with rl. > > > > In this case, though, rl is off the list, so that hardware should still > be > > good. The only other SBC I was aware of at Timing Solutions was one that > > had an 'ed' chip on it (an ISA realtek part IIRC) that was used in around > > 2001, but in a 'one off' custom setup that I don't think will ever be > > upgraded.... But I have to ask since I know how things worked during my > > time there and systems that 'would never be upgraded' often times were > > later... > > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. > > > > Warner > > I checked all our various kernel configs, and the only one on the list > we still use appears to be rl. > > One driver I was surprised to see was not on the list was vte. So I'll > just preemptively mention that we do use that one too. >I'll assume that you've deployed more than 5 of these systems and that you may someday upgrade them as well? Which of the Vortex86 processors are you using, if you can answer that... Warner
On 10/4/18 7:38 PM, Warner Losh wrote:> I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.I still have a vr integrated on an old MotherBoard. As I said, if it goes away I'll find another solution; if it stays, the better. I doubt it will survive until late 2023, BTW. bye av.
05.10.2018 0:38, Warner Losh wrote:> I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.vr(4) mentioned in the STAY list or else I would be first yelling as it is still very common in embedded solutions (including integrated ports in my home router).
> I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.vr is used by my TV driver laptop: http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/ vr0: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500 options=82808<VLAN_MTU,WOL_UCAST,WOL_MAGIC,LINKSTATE> ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38 inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.91.255 media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX <full-duplex,flowcontrol,rxpause,txpause>) status: active Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade soon when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN server. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich. Brexit referendum stole 3,700,000 Brits votes abroad, inc. 700,000 in EU. Campaign lies, criminal funding, economy & pound down. Time for an honest ref. http://exitbrexit.uk https://www.peoples-vote.uk/petition https://eci.ec.europa.eu/002/public/#/initiative
On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 11:38:46AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:> ... > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.Warner, I had mentioned [*] that I'm using sf(4), would you please be more careful when collecting "NICs still in use" data? We really do need a wiki page and carefully relect all the feedback we've received so far and also upcoming one. ./danfe [*] Message-ID: <20181004084411.GA50348 at FreeBSD.org>