On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 05:30:53PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:> > Letsencrypt is a very important development, but it has (IMHO) a shaking > foundation.? I would not build a production system around it.? But then I > have lived in aspects of PKI since '95...I presume you meant "shaky foundation"? If so, would you care to elaborate? John -- Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth, for being correct, for being you. Never apologize for being correct, or for being years ahead of your time. If you're right and you know it, speak your mind even if you are a minority of one. The truth is still the truth. -- Mohandas Gandhi -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: <http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/attachments/20180831/b1ff1476/attachment-0001.sig>
On 08/31/2018 05:54 PM, John R. Dennison wrote:> On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 05:30:53PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote: >> Letsencrypt is a very important development, but it has (IMHO) a shaking >> foundation.? I would not build a production system around it.? But then I >> have lived in aspects of PKI since '95... > I presume you meant "shaky foundation"?Yes.? I am not in California (or similar earthquake place!)? Good old stable Michigan (we do get mild ones once in a while.? :)> If so, would you care to elaborateIt is designed for getting web servers quickly into TLS and then to a more stable provider.? "Make the web safe for all".? If your content is short information, your contacts will never notice that you go to a new cert quarterly.? Long-term users might also never see this, but I can see web services where a new cert every 90 days will cause a pain point. And for other services like IMAP, SMTP, LDAP (maybe not LDAP) constant changing certs even with a long lived root may get old for your customers. Plan on this to 'get into the pool', but not to live with it for more than a year. Unfortunately, there has never been an effective business model for small customers. We are kind of close with DMARC, but I think it misses the mark. Putting your domain root cert into your DNSSEC signed domain should be all that is needed to establish a rooted trust. I have to speak with some IETF colleagues on this (particularly in DNSSEC and DMARC)....
1 sep 2018 kl. 00:42 skrev Robert Moskowitz <rgm at htt-consult.com>:> On 08/31/2018 05:54 PM, John R. Dennison wrote: >> On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 05:30:53PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote: >>> Letsencrypt is a very important development, but it has (IMHO) a shaking >>> foundation. I would not build a production system around it. But then I >>> have lived in aspects of PKI since '95... >> I presume you meant "shaky foundation"? > > Yes. I am not in California (or similar earthquake place!) Good old stable Michigan (we do get mild ones once in a while. :) > >> If so, would you care to elaborate > > It is designed for getting web servers quickly into TLS and then to a more stable provider. "Make the web safe for all". If your content is short information, your contacts will never notice that you go to a new cert quarterly. Long-term users might also never see this, but I can see web services where a new cert every 90 days will cause a pain point. > > And for other services like IMAP, SMTP, LDAP (maybe not LDAP) constant changing certs even with a long lived root may get old for your customers. > > Plan on this to 'get into the pool', but not to live with it for more than a year. > > Unfortunately, there has never been an effective business model for small customers. > > We are kind of close with DMARC, but I think it misses the mark. Putting your domain root cert into your DNSSEC signed domain should be all that is needed to establish a rooted trust. > > I have to speak with some IETF colleagues on this (particularly in DNSSEC and DMARC)....I'm not sure I still see the point you're trying to make. What actual practical and concrete problems are you suggesting may arise in the situations you touch on above? As far as I know, if you have a properly set up LE certificate for a service, and renew it regularly, clients will not have a problem with this. They trust the root CA, and when you renew/replace the certificate, they will happily trust the new one, over and over again. Considering all relevant root trust stores now contain LE's CA, it's here to stay from what I can tell, not to mention it's working well so far.
On Aug 31, 2018, at 4:42 PM, Robert Moskowitz <rgm at htt-consult.com> wrote:> > [Let?s Encrypt] is designed for getting web servers quickly into TLSYes.> ...and then to a more stable provider.[citation wanted]> If your content is short information, your contacts will never notice that you go to a new cert quarterly.They?ll never notice regardless. I?m looking at a Google.com certificate right now that was generated on August 14th of this year and will not be valid past October 23. That?s the same replacement schedule as Let?s Encrypt. The old model of long-lived certificates has no special value. It?s purely a business decision on the part of the providers and customers. Automation removes much of this model?s value.> I can see web services where a new cert every 90 days will cause a pain point.Describe one. I?ve been running some of my domains on Let?s Encrypt for years now, and have never had a single user complain to me that my certs are changing too often.> And for other services like IMAP, SMTP, LDAP (maybe not LDAP) constant changing certs even with a long lived root may get old for your customers.As long as both the old and new certs are valid at the time of replacement, the client should care nothing about it unless they?ve gone to the trouble to download the cert and check it against the cached copy every time. I remember hearing about at least one browser plugin that did this, but since the idea of rapid cert replacement has been gaining ground, I expect that plugin has lost much of the small amount of popularity it once held.> Unfortunately, there has never been an effective business model for small customers.There is now: it?s called Let?s Encrypt. :)
> > And for other services like IMAP, SMTP, LDAP (maybe not LDAP) constant > changing certs even with a long lived root may get old for your customers.Why? I have corporate systems on 2 year commercial CA signed certificates and personal servers on 90 day LetsEncrypt ones - my users of IMAP and SMTP have never ever noticed when I changed the certificates on any device. They certificates all have trusted CAs so the clients trust them without any interaction. Even I don't notice when certbot renews my certificates.> > Unfortunately, there has never been an effective business model for > small customers.The problem is one of trust - in the past even significant CAs have had their signing keys leaked, so it's difficult for the root CAs to trust a company who deals with SMEs with cut price signing (the infrastructure has a significant cost, so they must be cutting corners somewhere!). That was until LetsEncrypt comes along - it has the backing of some big names and *IS* an effective business model for small and private customers. P.