I still haven''t got any "warm and fuzzy" responses yet solidifying ZFS in combination with Firewire or USB enclosures. I am looking for 4-10 drive enclosures for quiet SOHO desktop-ish use. I am trying to confirm that OpenSolaris+ZFS would be stable with this, if exported out as JBOD and allow ZFS to manage each disk individually. Enclosure idea (choose one): http://fwdepot.com/thestore/default.php/cPath/1_88 Would be looking to use 750GB SATA2 drives, or IDE is fine too. Would anyone be willing to speak up and give me some faith in this before I invest money into a solution that won''t work? I don''t intend on hot-plugging any of these devices, just using Firewire (or USB, if I can find a big enclosure) since it is a cheap and reliable interconnect (eSATA seems to be a little too new for use with OpenSolaris unless I have some PCI-X slots) Any help is appreciated. I''d most likely use a Shuttle XPC as the "head unit" for all of this - it is quiet and small. (I''m looking to downsize my beefy huge noisy heavy tower with limited space availability) - obviously bandwidth on the bus would be limited the more drives sharing the same cable. That would be my only design constraint. Thanks a ton. Again, any input (good, bad, ugly, personal experiences or opinions) is appreciated A LOT! - mike
> I still haven''t got any "warm and fuzzy" responses > yet solidifying ZFS in combination with Firewire or USB enclosures.I was unable to use zfs (that is "zpool create" or "mkfs -F ufs") on firewire devices, because scsa1394 would hang the system as soon as multiple concurrent write commands are submitted to it. I filed bug 6445725 (which disappeared in the scsa1394 bugs.opensolaris.org black hole), submitted a fix and requested a sponsor for the fix[*], but not much has happened with fixing this problem in opensolaris. There is no such problem with USB mass storage devices. [*] http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=46190 This message posted from opensolaris.org
Mike, Take a look at http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8100808442979626078&q=CSI%3Amunich Granted, this was for demo purposes, but the team in Munich is clearly leveraging USB sticks for their purposes. HTH, Bev. mike wrote:> I still haven''t got any "warm and fuzzy" responses yet solidifying ZFS > in combination with Firewire or USB enclosures. > > I am looking for 4-10 drive enclosures for quiet SOHO desktop-ish use. > I am trying to confirm that OpenSolaris+ZFS would be stable with this, > if exported out as JBOD and allow ZFS to manage each disk > individually. > > Enclosure idea (choose one): > http://fwdepot.com/thestore/default.php/cPath/1_88 > Would be looking to use 750GB SATA2 drives, or IDE is fine too. > > Would anyone be willing to speak up and give me some faith in this > before I invest money into a solution that won''t work? I don''t intend > on hot-plugging any of these devices, just using Firewire (or USB, if > I can find a big enclosure) since it is a cheap and reliable > interconnect (eSATA seems to be a little too new for use with > OpenSolaris unless I have some PCI-X slots) > > Any help is appreciated. I''d most likely use a Shuttle XPC as the > "head unit" for all of this - it is quiet and small. (I''m looking to > downsize my beefy huge noisy heavy tower with limited space > availability) - obviously bandwidth on the bus would be limited the > more drives sharing the same cable. That would be my only design > constraint. > > Thanks a ton. Again, any input (good, bad, ugly, personal experiences > or opinions) is appreciated A LOT! > > - mike > _______________________________________________ > zfs-discuss mailing list > zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org > http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
J?rgen Keil wrote:>>I still haven''t got any "warm and fuzzy" responses >>yet solidifying ZFS in combination with Firewire or USB enclosures. > > > I was unable to use zfs (that is "zpool create" or "mkfs -F ufs") on > firewire devices, because scsa1394 would hang the system as > soon as multiple concurrent write commands are submitted to it.I''ve had better luck than that in that my "zpool create" worked and the first data copy (23085 MP3 files, 105Gb) worked very well. But yes, stress can lock things up nicely on build 51.> I filed bug 6445725 (which disappeared in the scsa1394 > bugs.opensolaris.org black hole), submitted a fix and > requested a sponsor for the fix[*], but not much has happened > with fixing this problem in opensolaris.Let me poke the sponsor about it. It''s a P4 now, which I don''t think is high enough. I''d also like to try your fix on my box :-) Rob T
Would you consider a USB stick to be the same usability model as a handful of 750GB drives (backing up large files for home backup needs - DVD backups, home pictures, etc) - that wouldn''t be hot plugged often if at all (only on failure, or accidental power loss/etc) On 3/20/07, Bev Crair <Beverly.Crair at sun.com> wrote:> Mike, > Take a look at > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8100808442979626078&q=CSI%3Amunich > > Granted, this was for demo purposes, but the team in Munich is clearly > leveraging USB sticks for their purposes. > HTH, > Bev. > > mike wrote: > > I still haven''t got any "warm and fuzzy" responses yet solidifying ZFS > > in combination with Firewire or USB enclosures. > > > > I am looking for 4-10 drive enclosures for quiet SOHO desktop-ish use. > > I am trying to confirm that OpenSolaris+ZFS would be stable with this, > > if exported out as JBOD and allow ZFS to manage each disk > > individually. > > > > Enclosure idea (choose one): > > http://fwdepot.com/thestore/default.php/cPath/1_88 > > Would be looking to use 750GB SATA2 drives, or IDE is fine too. > > > > Would anyone be willing to speak up and give me some faith in this > > before I invest money into a solution that won''t work? I don''t intend > > on hot-plugging any of these devices, just using Firewire (or USB, if > > I can find a big enclosure) since it is a cheap and reliable > > interconnect (eSATA seems to be a little too new for use with > > OpenSolaris unless I have some PCI-X slots) > > > > Any help is appreciated. I''d most likely use a Shuttle XPC as the > > "head unit" for all of this - it is quiet and small. (I''m looking to > > downsize my beefy huge noisy heavy tower with limited space > > availability) - obviously bandwidth on the bus would be limited the > > more drives sharing the same cable. That would be my only design > > constraint. > > > > Thanks a ton. Again, any input (good, bad, ugly, personal experiences > > or opinions) is appreciated A LOT! > > > > - mike > > _______________________________________________ > > zfs-discuss mailing list > > zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org > > http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss >
It looks like the following bug is still open:
6424510 usb ignores DKIOCFLUSHWRITECACHE
Until it is fixed, I wouldn''t even consider using ZFS on USB storage.
Even so, not all bridge boards (Firewire included) implement this
command. Unless you can verify that it functions correctly, it is
safer to avoid USB and Firewire all together, as you risk serious
corruption in the event of a power loss. This holds true for any
filesystem.
Another good reason is that scrubs and rebuilds will take a long time.
Unfortunately, I don''t think that port multipliers are yet supported
in the SATA framework, so probably the best bet is a large enclosure
with internal SATA disks.
Chris
> Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Chris Csanady <cc at 137.org> >> Date: March 20, 2007 11:58:24 AM PDT >> To: mike <mike503 at gmail.com> >> Cc: ZFS Discussions <zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org> >> Subject: Re: [zfs-discuss] ZFS and Firewire/USB enclosures >> >> It looks like the following bug is still open: >> >> 6424510 usb ignores DKIOCFLUSHWRITECACHEThis bug has been fixed in NV54. Phi>> >> Until it is fixed, I wouldn''t even consider using ZFS on USB storage. >> Even so, not all bridge boards (Firewire included) implement this >> command. Unless you can verify that it functions correctly, it is >> safer to avoid USB and Firewire all together, as you risk serious >> corruption in the event of a power loss. This holds true for any >> filesystem. >> >> Another good reason is that scrubs and rebuilds will take a long time. >> Unfortunately, I don''t think that port multipliers are yet supported >> in the SATA framework, so probably the best bet is a large enclosure >> with internal SATA disks. >> >> Chris >> _______________________________________________ >> zfs-discuss mailing list >> zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org >> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss > >
okay so since this is fixed, Chris, would you consider using USB/FW now? I am desperate to replace a server that is failing and I want to replace it with a proper quiet ZFS-based solution, I hate being held captive by NTFS issues (it may have corrupted my data now a second time) ZFS''s checksumming + storage pooling is what I want to get going. If anyone else has ideas for quiet easily expandable storage I''d be willing to listen to any ideas. Off-list is fine as is on-list. On 3/20/07, Phi Tran <Phi.Tran at sun.com> wrote:> This bug has been fixed in NV54. > > Phi> >> Until it is fixed, I wouldn''t even consider using ZFS on USB storage. > >> Even so, not all bridge boards (Firewire included) implement this > >> command. Unless you can verify that it functions correctly, it is > >> safer to avoid USB and Firewire all together, as you risk serious > >> corruption in the event of a power loss. This holds true for any > >> filesystem.> >> Another good reason is that scrubs and rebuilds will take a long time. > >> Unfortunately, I don''t think that port multipliers are yet supported > >> in the SATA framework, so probably the best bet is a large enclosure > >> with internal SATA disks.
On March 20, 2007 1:41:53 PM -0700 mike <mike503 at gmail.com> wrote:> I am desperate to replace a server that is failing and I want to > replace it with a proper quiet ZFS-based solutionSlightly off your point, but I can''t imagine 4 drives being anything near "quiet". -frank
Mike, We have used 4 disks (2X80GB disks and 2X250GB disks) on USB and things worked well. Hot plugging the disks was not all that smooth for us. Other than that we had no issues using the disks. We used this setup for demos at the FOSS 2007 conference at Bangalore and that went through several destructive tests for a period of 3 days and the setup survied well. (It never let us down in front of the customers :-) The disks we used had individual enclosures, which was a bit clunky. It would be nice to have a single enclosure for all the disks (which can power the disks). Thanks and regards, Sanjeev. Bev Crair wrote:> Mike, > Take a look at > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8100808442979626078&q=CSI%3Amunich > > > Granted, this was for demo purposes, but the team in Munich is clearly > leveraging USB sticks for their purposes. > HTH, > Bev. > > mike wrote: > >> I still haven''t got any "warm and fuzzy" responses yet solidifying ZFS >> in combination with Firewire or USB enclosures. >> >> I am looking for 4-10 drive enclosures for quiet SOHO desktop-ish use. >> I am trying to confirm that OpenSolaris+ZFS would be stable with this, >> if exported out as JBOD and allow ZFS to manage each disk >> individually. >> >> Enclosure idea (choose one): >> http://fwdepot.com/thestore/default.php/cPath/1_88 >> Would be looking to use 750GB SATA2 drives, or IDE is fine too. >> >> Would anyone be willing to speak up and give me some faith in this >> before I invest money into a solution that won''t work? I don''t intend >> on hot-plugging any of these devices, just using Firewire (or USB, if >> I can find a big enclosure) since it is a cheap and reliable >> interconnect (eSATA seems to be a little too new for use with >> OpenSolaris unless I have some PCI-X slots) >> >> Any help is appreciated. I''d most likely use a Shuttle XPC as the >> "head unit" for all of this - it is quiet and small. (I''m looking to >> downsize my beefy huge noisy heavy tower with limited space >> availability) - obviously bandwidth on the bus would be limited the >> more drives sharing the same cable. That would be my only design >> constraint. >> >> Thanks a ton. Again, any input (good, bad, ugly, personal experiences >> or opinions) is appreciated A LOT! >> >> - mike >> _______________________________________________ >> zfs-discuss mailing list >> zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org >> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > zfs-discuss mailing list > zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org > http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss-- Solaris Revenue Products Engineering, India Engineering Center, Sun Microsystems India Pvt Ltd. Tel: x27521 +91 80 669 27521
Would the system be able to halt if something was unplugged/some massive failure happened? That way if something got tripped, I could fix it before any corruption or issue occured. That would be my safety net, I suppose. On 3/20/07, Sanjeev Bagewadi <Sanjeev.Bagewadi at sun.com> wrote:> Mike, > > We have used 4 disks (2X80GB disks and 2X250GB disks) on USB and things > worked well. > Hot plugging the disks was not all that smooth for us. > > Other than that we had no issues using the disks. We used this setup for > demos at the FOSS 2007 conference > at Bangalore and that went through several destructive tests for a > period of 3 days and the setup survied well. > (It never let us down in front of the customers :-) > > The disks we used had individual enclosures, which was a bit clunky. > It would be nice to have a single enclosure for all the disks (which can > power the disks). > > > Thanks and regards, > Sanjeev. > > Bev Crair wrote: > > > Mike, > > Take a look at > > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8100808442979626078&q=CSI%3Amunich > > > > > > Granted, this was for demo purposes, but the team in Munich is clearly > > leveraging USB sticks for their purposes. > > HTH, > > Bev. > > > > mike wrote: > > > >> I still haven''t got any "warm and fuzzy" responses yet solidifying ZFS > >> in combination with Firewire or USB enclosures. > >> > >> I am looking for 4-10 drive enclosures for quiet SOHO desktop-ish use. > >> I am trying to confirm that OpenSolaris+ZFS would be stable with this, > >> if exported out as JBOD and allow ZFS to manage each disk > >> individually. > >> > >> Enclosure idea (choose one): > >> http://fwdepot.com/thestore/default.php/cPath/1_88 > >> Would be looking to use 750GB SATA2 drives, or IDE is fine too. > >> > >> Would anyone be willing to speak up and give me some faith in this > >> before I invest money into a solution that won''t work? I don''t intend > >> on hot-plugging any of these devices, just using Firewire (or USB, if > >> I can find a big enclosure) since it is a cheap and reliable > >> interconnect (eSATA seems to be a little too new for use with > >> OpenSolaris unless I have some PCI-X slots) > >> > >> Any help is appreciated. I''d most likely use a Shuttle XPC as the > >> "head unit" for all of this - it is quiet and small. (I''m looking to > >> downsize my beefy huge noisy heavy tower with limited space > >> availability) - obviously bandwidth on the bus would be limited the > >> more drives sharing the same cable. That would be my only design > >> constraint. > >> > >> Thanks a ton. Again, any input (good, bad, ugly, personal experiences > >> or opinions) is appreciated A LOT! > >> > >> - mike > >> _______________________________________________ > >> zfs-discuss mailing list > >> zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org > >> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > > zfs-discuss mailing list > > zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org > > http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss > > > > -- > Solaris Revenue Products Engineering, > India Engineering Center, > Sun Microsystems India Pvt Ltd. > Tel: x27521 +91 80 669 27521 > >