llvm dev - Nov 2019 - [cfe-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 12:18 PM Renato Golin <rengolin at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 at 08:44, Whisperity via llvm-dev
> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> > There *are* open-source Discord clients, 3rd party tools and the like.
>
> This is a big uphill fight that is rarelly worthy. Not to mention
> privacy guarantees and terms and conditions that are not "fixed"
by
> OSS tooling.
>
> > The corporation behind Discord is just not authorising you legally to
use any of those tools at hand.
>
> That doesn't sound good.
>
> Also, many companies have "approved list" of software, which a
"gaming
> chat app" will rarely be.
>
> I'd have to subvert  the private license *and* my company's
security
> policies. I can assure you, this won't end well.
>
> Slack isn't much better in general, tbh, but more companies allow them
> on corporate networks.
>
> IRC has a ton of problems, too, but it's our default. We should only
> move to a better tool, not a different tool. We want to bring in new
> people without alienating old people, like me.
>
> Discourse seems to be OSS GPLv2, so we could host our own and apply
> our own CoC / moderating if providers are not able to meet our needs.
> I have real trouble using web BBSs (text ones over dialup were fine),
> so I'd really appreciate an email/subscription mechanism.
>
> If we do select a provider (for Discourse, another or even Stack
> Overflow), we need to make sure we'll always be able to download the
> whole history and move to another service if the terms stop being
> reasonable (or we get tired of it).
>
> This was a big point in using Github (vs. self-hosted): it's git, we
> can move out whenever we want. We should keep that constraint for
> every tool we use.
+1.

All this disscussion is slightly jumbled together,because i think
a move from IRC to discord/slack/etc, and a move from
mailing lists to Discourse, are two *very* different discussions.
I think latter (provided there is still mail integration!) may be
easy to sell. But the choice of tools in former is just a non-starter.

If anything, Matrix.org does indeed seem like an (only) possible
alternative there.
> --renato
Roman

Yes, forums and chat are very different ways of communication, all of which
require different toolings. Have had the same arguments sometimes in other
communities who tried to police their Discord like it was a forum, for
example.

One big problem with Discord is that the client doesn't allow you to be
logged in with multiple personalities, unlike Slack. This is easily fixed
by running in browser with "multi-account containers" enabled (a
really
kickass feature, mind), but the desktop client would need constant
log-in--log-out between accounts if someone, like me, doesn't want to mix
or pollute their "gaming account" (so to say) with "work",
and the other
way around.

Also, running Discord is a nice distraction from work and even though one
could say "Hey I develop LLVM I need this to communicate with the
peers"
there will be the other 70+ gaming-related servers constantly nagging for
attention...

I get that Discord is technically free for game communities and such, but
there might be the subtle small-script at the bottom of terms which could
result in them going and asking money from LLVM Foundation for using their
platform for "commercial purposes" or something?

CppLanguage Slack has an #llvm channel. Then again, if "millions of
us"
flood that workspace, the price will go up for the peeps behind that rent
too...

But let's get some positive news: compared to IRC, Discord has persistency
in terms of ability to scroll up and see older messages (without using
third-party log sites) and the ability to ping someone (without use of
bouncers). That's certainly a plus. I have never heard of Matrix before,
however.

Roman Lebedev <lebedev.ri at gmail.com> ezt írta (időpont: 2019. nov. 20.,
Sze, 12:04):
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 12:18 PM Renato Golin <rengolin at gmail.com>
wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 at 08:44, Whisperity via llvm-dev
> > <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> > > There *are* open-source Discord clients, 3rd party tools and the
like.
> >
> > This is a big uphill fight that is rarelly worthy. Not to mention
> > privacy guarantees and terms and conditions that are not
"fixed" by
> > OSS tooling.
> >
> > > The corporation behind Discord is just not authorising you
legally to
> use any of those tools at hand.
> >
> > That doesn't sound good.
> >
> > Also, many companies have "approved list" of software, which
a "gaming
> > chat app" will rarely be.
> >
> > I'd have to subvert  the private license *and* my company's
security
> > policies. I can assure you, this won't end well.
> >
> > Slack isn't much better in general, tbh, but more companies allow
them
> > on corporate networks.
> >
> > IRC has a ton of problems, too, but it's our default. We should
only
> > move to a better tool, not a different tool. We want to bring in new
> > people without alienating old people, like me.
> >
> > Discourse seems to be OSS GPLv2, so we could host our own and apply
> > our own CoC / moderating if providers are not able to meet our needs.
> > I have real trouble using web BBSs (text ones over dialup were fine),
> > so I'd really appreciate an email/subscription mechanism.
> >
> > If we do select a provider (for Discourse, another or even Stack
> > Overflow), we need to make sure we'll always be able to download
the
> > whole history and move to another service if the terms stop being
> > reasonable (or we get tired of it).
> >
> > This was a big point in using Github (vs. self-hosted): it's git,
we
> > can move out whenever we want. We should keep that constraint for
> > every tool we use.
> +1.
>
> All this disscussion is slightly jumbled together,because i think
> a move from IRC to discord/slack/etc, and a move from
> mailing lists to Discourse, are two *very* different discussions.
> I think latter (provided there is still mail integration!) may be
> easy to sell. But the choice of tools in former is just a non-starter.
>
> If anything, Matrix.org does indeed seem like an (only) possible
> alternative there.
>
> > --renato
>
> Roman
>
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On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 at 11:04, Roman Lebedev <lebedev.ri at gmail.com>
wrote:
> If anything, Matrix.org does indeed seem like an (only) possible
> alternative there.
Wow. This thing looks awesome!

Interoperability (irc, email, slack, XMPP, even discord), federation,
open standard, OSS reference implementations, end-to-end encryption,
even available on F-Droid!

Honestly, looks like it ticks all the boxes an open community would require.

--renato

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 at 21:36, Whisperity via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> there will be the other 70+ gaming-related servers constantly nagging for
attention...
I very literally cannot cope with that at all. I can't "just
filter"
the noise on my own, so, if that becomes the norm, I'll be forced to
pass.