i'm sure most of us are avid slashdot readers, but...
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/07/13/1558239&mode=nested
have fun
dongoodman
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> i'm sure most of us are avid slashdot readers, but... > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/07/13/1558239&mode=nestedArticle full of bullshit... How much money did they got from Microsoft? Marcel --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
On Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 01:21:36PM -0500, dongoodman wrote:> i'm sure most of us are avid slashdot readers, but... > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/07/13/1558239&mode=nestedAw fuck, they *would* slashdot *that* one. I spoke to the reporter who did the 'listening tests'. They were not controlled tests, they were not blind or double-blind (the listeners knew exactly which codecs they were listening to), and the reviewers, when they came in, already had opionions of which ones were best. In other words, not a great authority on the subject. It's going to take months to undo that damned article. Monty --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
Greetings, On Fri, 13 Jul 2001, dongoodman wrote:> i'm sure most of us are avid slashdot readers, but... > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/07/13/1558239&mode=nestedIf you ask me, this looks a lot like one of these test between apache and IIS or between linux and NT. So, the question is how to react to this. Question 1: Should we react anyway? I guess so; it's FUD, and you should react to it but at in the correct way! Question 2: How should be react? We, we should -at all cost- avoid a 'mp3 sucks, vorbis rules'-kind of reply! How exactly we want to react is something for the 'vorbis' people to descide; but I would propose that everybody else would not respond to this; until vorbis has made a formal reply to this! PS. We should also be fair enough that is does might be possible that vorbis was NOT the best. The apache-IIS test was actually very good example at this. Apache did have some serious problem that showed up in this test. But, the weeks after that, the worked special on this; and a new test -some time later- showed that these problems where solved. So, the apache-people showed that a open-source project has the ability to very fast respond to certain problems; which turned out a very 'strong' point for them! Cheerio! Kr. Bonne. -- KB905-RIPE Belgacom IP networking (c=be,a=rtt,p=belgacomgroup,s=Bonne,g=Kristoff) Internet, IP and IP/VPN kristoff.bonne@skypro.be Faxbox : +32 2 2435122 --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
I'm not on the list, so cc any replies directly to my address please. I saw this discussion reading the archives, and thought I would mention an idea I saw in the discussion on slashdot. Someone suggested that a good way to do a test of lossy formats would be to take about 3 or 4 clips of around a minute each, encode them to vorbis, mp3, mp3pro, wma and whatever else you want to test, then decode them back to .wav files and post them for download, not giving any clue as to which format they were originally in (like name them clip1.wav, clip2.wav) then have people download and evaluate them (providing the original .wav for a reference point, of course) Once a preset number of people have evaluated them, and sent back their comments on each (mabe have a form that they can fill out) then release teh results telling which file was in what format. I think this would probably be the best way to objectively test all the available lossey sound formats, and I think that testing with as many people as possible is probably preferrable, and more accurate to testing with just a few so-called experts. I might do this sometime if I have some free time and I figure out what tracks would be appropiate to use, they would probably have to be either non-copyrighted or I would have to have to get permission from the copywright owner (unless 1 or 2 minute clips would be covered under fair use, I don't know) --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
On a similar note, I heard a good way of testing the transparency of a codec is to encode a song, decode it to WAV, re-encode the decoded WAV etc about 10 times. It highlights the imperfections very well. I tried this some time ago with LAME using CBR & VBR, & VBR was much worse. Haven't tried it with vorbis. Ross. Patrick McLean wrote:> I'm not on the list, so cc any replies directly to my address please. > > I saw this discussion reading the archives, and thought I > would mention an > idea I saw in the discussion on slashdot. Someone suggested > that a good way > to do a test of lossy formats would be to take about 3 or 4 > clips of around > a minute each, encode them to vorbis, mp3, mp3pro, wma and > whatever else you > want to test, then decode them back to .wav files and post them for > download, not giving any clue as to which format they were > originally in > (like name them clip1.wav, clip2.wav) then have people > download and evaluate > them (providing the original .wav for a reference point, of course) > > Once a preset number of people have evaluated them, and sent > back their > comments on each (mabe have a form that they can fill out) > then release teh > results telling which file was in what format. > > I think this would probably be the best way to objectively > test all the > available lossey sound formats, and I think that testing with > as many people > as possible is probably preferrable, and more accurate to > testing with just > a few so-called experts. > > I might do this sometime if I have some free time and I > figure out what > tracks would be appropiate to use, they would probably have > to be either > non-copyrighted or I would have to have to get permission from the > copywright owner (unless 1 or 2 minute clips would be covered > under fair > use, I don't know) > > > --- >8 ---- > List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ > Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ > To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to > 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' > containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No > subject is needed. > Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered. >--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
Oddsock (oddsock@oddsock.org) wrote :> At 03:34 AM 7/18/2001, you wrote: > >On 2001-07-17, The nameless One <oddsock@oddsock.org> wrote: > > > in case anyone is interested, I have built a win32 program which will > > > perform a double blind listening tests..It will allow you to play each > > > sample and allow you to rank them in order of quality. The program > > > will then send the results to a centralized server which saves it off > > > to a DB and gives immediate feedback to the user the outcome of the > > > test. > > > >Hm, is it really a double-blind test? I.e. does the program itself know > >which format it's playing? This could be a problem if somebody wants to > >abuse this system by writing a client which rates, say, wma best 20 > >million times in a row. > > yes, it truely is a double blind test..since the samples are all WAVs it > truely does not know what it's playing...not until the results are sent to > the server, does the server respond back with which sample cooresponded to > which format.And then the tester computes the cksums of the WAVs and publishes them ... You can prevent this by not disclosing the WAV identities until the end of of the test. Of course people can analyze the WAVs and discover the used codecs that way. This is IMHO a stupid way to test anything. " ... have people ... evaluate ..." People are stupid an clueless , remember ?> and by not allowing multiple results submitted by the same IP (on the > server), you pretty much prevent abuse....although you also probably piss > off those behind ISP-wide proxies....ah well, you can't please everyone...People^W Security experts have discovered decades ago that host/IP based security is no security at all( rsh/rcp/rlogin ). No need to repeat their mistakes.> >Unluckily, I can't think of a solution which does not involve security > >by obscurity right now. Maybe you can. Or you already have (-: > > > >regards, > >-- > >Andreas Fuchs, <asf@acm.org>, asf@jabber.at, antifuchs-- David Balazic -------------- "Be excellent to each other." - Bill & Ted - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.