I''ve been thinking about how to make Puppet a killer app, and I think there is one specific thing that could be done to help make that happen: People using Puppet now to consistently state what they *really* wish Puppet could do for them -- the recent thread around Puppet on Windows is in that vein, but it''s not specific enough. For example, I''d like to know what _problem_ people are wanting to solve on Windows that they think Puppet can solve. The more specific you can be, the better. My answer: think of Puppet as the SysAdmin equivalent of Rails -- an already-does-what-most-people-need-with-sysadmins right out of the box, is easily extensible and modular, has a great library of code (ie, recipes) that do many of the most common tasks, has successful, vocal advocates, etc, etc. In my mind, drawing a parallel with Rails helps developers ''get it'' wrt what Puppet is trying to accomplish. That, in turn, helps me think about what Puppet needs in order to be more successful. For example, Puppet needs not only to have many more recipes (think CPAN for Perl) but needs to have a well-established set of ones that lots of people have found useful (ie, a Standard Library). Steven slj3907 _______________________________________________ Puppet-users mailing list Puppet-users@madstop.com https://mail.madstop.com/mailman/listinfo/puppet-users
Hi, Steven Jenkins wrote:> I''ve been thinking about how to make Puppet a killer app, and I think > there is one specific thing that could be done to help make that > happen: > > People using Puppet now to consistently state what they *really* wish > Puppet could do for them -- the recent thread around Puppet on > Windows is in that vein, but it''s not specific enough. For example, > I''d like to know what _problem_ people are wanting to solve on > Windows that they think Puppet can solve. The more specific you can > be, the better. > > My answer: think of Puppet as the SysAdmin equivalent of Rails -- an > already-does-what-most-people-need-with-sysadmins right out of the > box, is easily extensible and modular, has a great library of code > (ie, recipes) that do many of the most common tasks, has successful, > vocal advocates, etc, etc. In my mind, drawing a parallel with Rails > helps developers ''get it'' wrt what Puppet is trying to accomplish. > That, in turn, helps me think about what Puppet needs in order to be > more successful. For example, Puppet needs not only to have many > more recipes (think CPAN for Perl) but needs to have a > well-established set of ones that lots of people have found useful > (ie, a Standard Library).IIRC, the Rails motto is "Convention, not Configuration." Rails presumes a best practice then implements it and the developer has the option to override the framework''s opinion to handle special/legacy cases. It''s similar to a Perl idiom - make easy things easy, make hard things possible. To follow that, one or more ''best practices'' need to be identified and codified. I think that one of the most underrated strengths of Perl is CPAN and CPAN.pm. Gem almost fills the role for Ruby; it handles retrieving and installing modules and solves the problem of different scripts needing specific versions of gems, but it falls because there''s no central repository of modules which makes it difficult to find modules. I''d suggest creating a central repository such as CPAN for puppet and some form of automated testing if possible. Make it easy for people to do the right thing... :) -- Bob
--On Thursday, April 12, 2007 12:11 AM -0500 Bob Apthorpe <apthorpe@cynistar.net> wrote:> I''d suggest creating a central repository such as CPAN for puppet and > some form of automated testing if possible.I think that''s an awesome idea. I''m sure Luke would be interested in that and willing to host it. If not, I''ll see if my organization is interested in helping with this.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 12 April 2007 07:11, Bob Apthorpe wrote:> To follow that, one or more ''best practices'' need to be identified and > codified. I think that one of the most underrated strengths of Perl is > CPAN and CPAN.pm. Gem almost fills the role for Ruby; it handles > retrieving and installing modules and solves the problem of different > scripts needing specific versions of gems, but it falls because there''s > no central repository of modules which makes it difficult to find modules. > > I''d suggest creating a central repository such as CPAN for puppet and > some form of automated testing if possible. > > Make it easy for people to do the right thing... :)As Digant said, this is really an awesome idea. The module work by David L. should be a good foundation for this. Regards, David - -- - - hallo... wie gehts heute? - - *hust* gut *rotz* *keuch* - - gott sei dank kommunizieren wir über ein septisches medium ;) -- Matthias Leeb, Uni f. angewandte Kunst, 2005-02-15 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGHfKW/Pp1N6Uzh0URAtCxAKCYfGGtLOw7z8LmJPObgpkq9N8D9wCgkfJj TfSWsv0kkZxHHNsGTiA7kxE=xXk0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Thu, 2007-04-12 at 10:49 +0200, David Schmitt wrote:> > I''d suggest creating a central repository such as CPAN for puppet and > > some form of automated testing if possible. > > > > Make it easy for people to do the right thing... :) > > As Digant said, this is really an awesome idea. The module work by David L. > should be a good foundation for this.I''ve been meaning to spend some time starting a ''puppet stdlib'' based on modules, but that obviously hasn''t happened yet; that library should probably be part of the puppet distribution - the default module path has /usr/share/puppet/modules on it for exactly that reason ;) I think such a library could start very simple, maybe just by collecting favorite wrappers like remotefile, and some commonly needed things like yum configs for yum-based distros. Basically, an attempt to share the things that people commonly need. David
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 12 April 2007 20:39, David Lutterkort wrote:> On Thu, 2007-04-12 at 10:49 +0200, David Schmitt wrote: > > > I''d suggest creating a central repository such as CPAN for puppet and > > > some form of automated testing if possible. > > > > > > Make it easy for people to do the right thing... :) > > > > As Digant said, this is really an awesome idea. The module work by David > > L. should be a good foundation for this. > > I''ve been meaning to spend some time starting a ''puppet stdlib'' based on > modules, but that obviously hasn''t happened yet; that library should > probably be part of the puppet distribution - the default module path > has /usr/share/puppet/modules on it for exactly that reason ;) > > I think such a library could start very simple, maybe just by collecting > favorite wrappers like remotefile, and some commonly needed things like > yum configs for yum-based distros. Basically, an attempt to share the > things that people commonly need.I have several thing I really would like to contribute to a central module repository: * sshd (host key distribution with storeconfigs; set values in sshd_config) * backuppc (automatic configuration of rsync over ssh, using sudo; set values in the config.pl) * munin (handle plugins, automatically configure central server with storeconfigs) * nagios2 (collect service checks and commands via storeconfigs) * bind (copy zonefiles to master and create zone-configuration on slaves automatically) I also I have a few smaller snippets for ntp, ssmtp, vserver, xen, mysql, phpmyadmin, logcheck, kernel modules and dnsmasq. These are mostly range from the trivial "install this package" They''re all Debian-only at the moment, but I suspect it should be no big problem to adapt them as needed to other systems. Regards, David - -- - - hallo... wie gehts heute? - - *hust* gut *rotz* *keuch* - - gott sei dank kommunizieren wir über ein septisches medium ;) -- Matthias Leeb, Uni f. angewandte Kunst, 2005-02-15 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGHonX/Pp1N6Uzh0URAlHlAJ0ds845CrQx6dKfct5lCEwqMygHgACaA9P+ pxcInBW2zWiedA86tYm3goM=+D/d -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
David Schmitt <david@schmitt.edv-bus.at> writes:> * munin (handle plugins, automatically configure central server with > storeconfigs) > * nagios2 (collect service checks and commands via storeconfigs)Given that we use nagios2 everywhere for monitoring and are starting to deploy munin, these would be awesome. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 13 April 2007 07:24, Russ Allbery wrote:> David Schmitt <david@schmitt.edv-bus.at> writes: > > * munin (handle plugins, automatically configure central server with > > storeconfigs) > > * nagios2 (collect service checks and commands via storeconfigs) > > Given that we use nagios2 everywhere for monitoring and are starting to > deploy munin, these would be awesome.http://club.black.co.at:82/svn/manifests/trunk/manifests/classes/nagios.pp Usage: node nagios2 { include nagios2 # Declare another nagios command nagios2::command { http_port: command_line => ''/usr/lib/nagios/plugins/check_http -p $ARG1$ -H $HOSTADDRESS$ -I $HOSTADDRESS$'' # Declare unmanaged hosts nagios_extra_host { "router01": parent => "gateway", ip => "10.0.0.1"; "router02": parent => "router01", ip => "192.168.0.1"; } } node target { # Monitor this host # nagios2::host { $fqdn: } include nagios_target # monitor a service #nagios2::service { "http_${apache2_port}": # check_command => "http_port!${apache2_port}" #} $apache2_port = 8080 include apache2 } The only drawback is that currently tthe needed storeconfig setting and subsequent filling of the database is really a drag on performance. 0.22.1 for example breaks at approximatly 120 monitored services (depends on H/W of course). 0.22.3 has improved that my a factor of 3-4. After looking into the database I belive there is much room for improvement still. I''m also really looking forward to seeing Blake''s work on PuppetStore! Regards, David - -- - - hallo... wie gehts heute? - - *hust* gut *rotz* *keuch* - - gott sei dank kommunizieren wir über ein septisches medium ;) -- Matthias Leeb, Uni f. angewandte Kunst, 2005-02-15 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGHzSp/Pp1N6Uzh0URAu7zAJkBrhOGIucqlp/xcf0x8HQzVJiDEgCeMcIZ L/IUDQccYDjjTcbJifH0Cj8=eKZM -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 13 April 2007 07:24, Russ Allbery wrote:> David Schmitt <david@schmitt.edv-bus.at> writes: > > * munin (handle plugins, automatically configure central server with > > storeconfigs) > > * nagios2 (collect service checks and commands via storeconfigs) > > Given that we use nagios2 everywhere for monitoring and are starting to > deploy munin, these would be awesome.After noticing a error in my last mail, I have added a doc/ directory to the svn and started with README.nagios2 and README.munin Hope that helps, David - -- - - hallo... wie gehts heute? - - *hust* gut *rotz* *keuch* - - gott sei dank kommunizieren wir über ein septisches medium ;) -- Matthias Leeb, Uni f. angewandte Kunst, 2005-02-15 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGH0et/Pp1N6Uzh0URAuPmAJ9xdNkKSZUHzljluHJ4CoFJCXIbPQCgnU9r 2qeCUE6ZxQ7+ctJ9JsJ6UoA=Aliq -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Apr 12, 2007, at 2:54 AM, Digant C Kasundra wrote:> --On Thursday, April 12, 2007 12:11 AM -0500 Bob Apthorpe > <apthorpe@cynistar.net> wrote: > >> I''d suggest creating a central repository such as CPAN for puppet and >> some form of automated testing if possible. > > I think that''s an awesome idea. I''m sure Luke would be interested > in that > and willing to host it. If not, I''ll see if my organization is > interested > in helping with this.This is exactly what PRM is support to be, right? I''m certainly willing to host it, although I need to get all of my sites to a VM in a data center or something, since the uplink is relatively slow. -- Between two evils, I always pick the one I never tried before. -- Mae West --------------------------------------------------------------------- Luke Kanies | http://reductivelabs.com | http://madstop.com
On Apr 11, 2007, at 11:26 PM, Steven Jenkins wrote:> > I''ve been thinking about how to make Puppet a killer app, and I > think there is one specific thing that could be done to help make > that happen: > > People using Puppet now to consistently state what they *really* > wish Puppet could do for them -- the recent thread around Puppet on > Windows is in that vein, but it''s not specific enough. For > example, I''d like to know what _problem_ people are wanting to > solve on Windows that they think Puppet can solve. The more > specific you can be, the better.Certainly a big part of any tool like this is knowing what can be done.> My answer: think of Puppet as the SysAdmin equivalent of Rails -- > an already-does-what-most-people-need-with-sysadmins right out of > the box, is easily extensible and modular, has a great library of > code (ie, recipes) that do many of the most common tasks, has > successful, vocal advocates, etc, etc. In my mind, drawing a > parallel with Rails helps developers ''get it'' wrt what Puppet is > trying to accomplish. That, in turn, helps me think about what > Puppet needs in order to be more successful. For example, Puppet > needs not only to have many more recipes (think CPAN for Perl) but > needs to have a well-established set of ones that lots of people > have found useful (ie, a Standard Library).It''s not really valid to compare this CPAN-like thing (which we''ve already been working on as PRM[1]), since Rails is an implementation in a pretty mature space (there have been LOTS of these frameworks, and Rails is just the latest and coolest) while Puppet is in a very immature space and PRM is a collection of Puppet code, not a new framework at all. That being said, I agree with you that PRM is a big key to moving Puppet from good to great, and it''s always been a big part of my plans, I''ve just not had the resources to dedicate to it, and while others have spent some time on PRM no one has really adopted it as their own. At least somewhat, I think the killer app you''re looking for is an app written *in* Puppet -- someone creating a Puppet implementation that has much of this already solved, in terms of convention over configuration. Once we get enough Puppet modules available, the best practices and standards and conventions will start to emerge, but I think it''ll eventually take someone creating a kind of super-module that includes a lot of these and then has clear preferences on how they''re used. Over all, though, you''re right that this is critical to the real success of Puppet and would make it much easier for others to start using it. I''d especially love to see it easy for people to just say "I want a good workstation" and have Puppet pick an appropriate profile and install all of the necessary modules. This would probably be some kind of profile manager -- something that knows what modules are available, which ones should be used, and makes it easy to pick a profile. This would be great to make available to distro vendors -- "yum install puppet-workstation" or something similar. 1 - https://reductivelabs.com/trac/puppet/wiki/PuppetRecipeManager -- No one who cannot rejoice in the discovery of his own mistakes deserves to be called a scholar. --Donald Foster --------------------------------------------------------------------- Luke Kanies | http://reductivelabs.com | http://madstop.com
On Apr 16, 2007, at 19:35, Luke Kanies wrote:> I''m certainly willing to host it, although I need to get all of my > sites to a VM in a data center or something, since the uplink is > relatively slow.To support this project more, I like to offer you a free VPS, based on Xen. We have it in these configurations: VPS-S: 240MB RAM 8GB HDD VPS-M: 480MB RAM 15GB HDD VPS-S: 960MB RAM 30GB HDD VPS-XS: 1920MB RAM 60GB HDD All our VPS''s run on HP Bladeservers, which means Xeon CPU''s and SCSI disks. Pick one that fits you, and I''ll set it up. Only thing you have to accept, is that the server is placed overseas (Copenhagen, Denmark)... ;-) -- Med venlig hilsen Juri Rischel Jensen Fab:IT ApS Vesterbrogade 50 DK-1620 København Tlf: 70 202 407 / Fax: 33 313 640 www.fab-it.dk / juri@fab-it.dk
On Apr 16, 2007, at 3:21 PM, Juri Rischel Jensen wrote:> > To support this project more, I like to offer you a free VPS, based > on Xen. We have it in these configurations: > > VPS-S: > 240MB RAM > 8GB HDD > > VPS-M: > 480MB RAM > 15GB HDD > > VPS-S: > 960MB RAM > 30GB HDD > > VPS-XS: > 1920MB RAM > 60GB HDD > > All our VPS''s run on HP Bladeservers, which means Xeon CPU''s and SCSI > disks. > > Pick one that fits you, and I''ll set it up. Only thing you have to > accept, is that the server is placed overseas (Copenhagen,I think a couple others have offered, but I should finally take someone up on the offer. I''m assuming I could get Debian on these...? I''d think something in the middle, and possibly even the lowest-end one would suffice. It''s mostly trac, apache, and svn, along with the puppet client to configure it all. I assume you can''t provide much in the way of guarantees, but I''d need at least something that promised some kind of window if the free hosting went away -- I would hate to wake up one morning with the image gone because someone decided I shouldn''t get free hosting any more. -- Meeting, n.: An assembly of people coming together to decide what person or department not represented in the room must solve a problem. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Luke Kanies | http://reductivelabs.com | http://madstop.com
Hi Luke On Apr 17, 2007, at 21:48, Luke Kanies wrote:> I think a couple others have offered, but I should finally take > someone up on the offer. I''m assuming I could get Debian on these...?Of course.> I''d think something in the middle, and possibly even the lowest-end > one would suffice. It''s mostly trac, apache, and svn, along with the > puppet client to configure it all.I''ll set you up with a VPS-M then. It should provide power enough for all your needs. And we can just upgrade it to a larger one if needed.> I assume you can''t provide much in the way of guarantees, but I''d > need at least something that promised some kind of window if the free > hosting went away -- I would hate to wake up one morning with the > image gone because someone decided I shouldn''t get free hosting any > more.I''m one of three owners of the company, so I can give you a bit more guarantee than a normal employee in an ISP can give. In Fab:IT we want to support OSS projects, and as we''re going to base our SCM infrastructure on Puppet, it''s only logical to provide the project with the resources it needs, if we can. Here''s some more info on our facilities: We''re renting datacenter space from a german company called Lambdanet (http://lambdanet.net), in one of their two danish POP''s. We''re still only running 100Mbit from our racks to Lambdanets routers, but are planning to upgrade to Gbit uplink in the near future. We only congest about 15-20Mbit sustained at the moment, so we don''t need it yet (or our customers don''t ;-) If this is good enough for you, and Puppet, then let me know, and I''ll set you up shortly after. Thanks for an awsome tool! -- Med venlig hilsen Juri Rischel Jensen Fab:IT ApS Vesterbrogade 50 DK-1620 København Tlf: 70 202 407 / Fax: 33 313 640 www.fab-it.dk / juri@fab-it.dk
On Apr 17, 2007, at 3:10 PM, Juri Rischel Jensen wrote:> Hi Luke > > On Apr 17, 2007, at 21:48, Luke Kanies wrote: >> I think a couple others have offered, but I should finally take >> someone up on the offer. I''m assuming I could get Debian on >> these...? > > Of course.Great.>> I''d think something in the middle, and possibly even the lowest-end >> one would suffice. It''s mostly trac, apache, and svn, along with the >> puppet client to configure it all. > > I''ll set you up with a VPS-M then. It should provide power enough for > all your needs. And we can just upgrade it to a larger one if needed.Sounds perfect.>> I assume you can''t provide much in the way of guarantees, but I''d >> need at least something that promised some kind of window if the free >> hosting went away -- I would hate to wake up one morning with the >> image gone because someone decided I shouldn''t get free hosting any >> more. > > I''m one of three owners of the company, so I can give you a bit more > guarantee than a normal employee in an ISP can give. In Fab:IT we > want to support OSS projects, and as we''re going to base our SCM > infrastructure on Puppet, it''s only logical to provide the project > with the resources it needs, if we can. > > Here''s some more info on our facilities: We''re renting datacenter > space from a german company called Lambdanet (http://lambdanet.net), > in one of their two danish POP''s. We''re still only running 100Mbit > from our racks to Lambdanets routers, but are planning to upgrade to > Gbit uplink in the near future. We only congest about 15-20Mbit > sustained at the moment, so we don''t need it yet (or our customers > don''t ;-) > > If this is good enough for you, and Puppet, then let me know, and > I''ll set you up shortly after.That sounds perfect. Thank you. -- Don''t tell me how hard you work. Tell me how much you get done. -- James Ling --------------------------------------------------------------------- Luke Kanies | http://reductivelabs.com | http://madstop.com