How does the Theora project differ from Nullsofts NSV project? Other than the obvious fact they use mp3.... <p><p>--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'theora-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
The Winamp codec for creating NSV files is the same or similar to Theora which used to be called VP3 and was developed under the company ON2. They have kept the product in the public domain by allowing it to be renamed Theora. While an NSV can be made with FlaskMpeg it can only be played in Winamp. You can use VP3 or Theora to make AVI and MOV format files. By using it in any video editing software you like. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Freun Laven" <FreunLaven@earthlink.net> To: <theora@xiph.org> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 3:56 PM Subject: [theora] Theora vs. Nullsoft NSV <p>> How does the Theora project differ from Nullsofts NSV project?> > Other than the obvious fact they use mp3.... > > > > --- >8 ---- > List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ > Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ > To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'theora-request@xiph.org' > containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. > Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered. >--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'theora-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
just a quick response to a few things on this thread --
* There's no issue with the naming. Xiph decided to call it Theora to
distinguish it from the original VP3, since it will probably end up being
incompatible
* Nullsoft chose to support VP3 in Winamp because they wanted a codec they could
do anything with, and VP3 was the obvious choice, being good quality and open
source. They also support OGG/Vorbis audio. I would suspect that they will
support OGG/Vorbis/Theora (OVT??) files when they are stable. We will certainly
encourage them to do so.
* Quality: I agree with the assessment that VP3 is excellent in low-motion
scenes and OK but not spectacular in high-motion. I'm actually surprised to
hear that it may be competitve with WM9; that's good news. We plan to make
some changes to the underlying compression algorithm to give it a 20 - 30%
improvement, to keep it competitive with the newest codecs available. We'll
see how that goes. Suggestions are welcome.
* Sorenson is, IMO, one generation behind VP3, as stated. It is based on an
older technology called VQ (same as the original Cinepak), which is generally
believed to be inferior to today's DCT/motion estimation-based codecs (such
as VP3, MPEG4, etc). It works very well at higher bitrates and is pretty good
with motion, but will break down badly in certain areas when the bitrate is
limited. Sorenson themselves are now primarily developing MPEG-4 products, so
that may tell us something.
* One thing not mentioned by those who tested the codecs is encode and decode
speed. This is a primary factor in designing a codec. It's relatively easy
to develop a new codec that beats existing products at bitrate/quality if you
don't care at all about performance. The challenge is to create a codec
that is superior at quality/bitrate, but is also low enough in complexity to
work well on typical platforms of the day. My feeling is that VP3 is pretty
good in this area too, but could be improved. Our hope is to increase
quality/bitrate of Theora without substantially adding to the CPU requirements.
Comments on this strategy are welcome.
- dbm
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Barnes [mailto:tojimbarnes@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tue 11/12/2002 1:59 AM
To: theora@xiph.org
Cc:
Subject: Re: [theora] Theora vs. Nullsoft NSV
The Winamp codec for creating NSV files is the same or similar to Theora
which used to be called VP3 and was developed under the company ON2.
They
have kept the product in the public domain by allowing it to be renamed
Theora. While an NSV can be made with FlaskMpeg it can only be played in
Winamp. You can use VP3 or Theora to make AVI and MOV format files.
By using it in any video editing software you like.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Freun Laven" <FreunLaven@earthlink.net>
To: <theora@xiph.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 3:56 PM
Subject: [theora] Theora vs. Nullsoft NSV
> How does the Theora project differ from Nullsofts NSV project?
>
> Other than the obvious fact they use mp3....
>
>
>
> --- >8 ----
> List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/
> Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/
> To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to
'theora-request@xiph.org'
> containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is
needed.
> Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
>
--- >8 ----
List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/
Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/
To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to
'theora-request@xiph.org'
containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject
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Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
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if your encode speed was that fast, you probably had "quick compress" turned on, which will reduce motion estimation. This may explain your poor results on high-motion material. <p>-----Original Message----- From: Jim Barnes [mailto:tojimbarnes@hotmail.com] Sent: Wed 11/13/2002 7:19 AM To: theora@xiph.org Cc: Subject: Re: [theora] Theora vs. Nullsoft NSV Thanks Ian I did mean to mention this but got caught up in rationalising For those that read my comments as to the quality I obtained from the various codec comparisons. One thing I forgot to mention was the speed. This little codec is quite fast when used out of either Premiere, Ulead MSP or even FlaskMpeg It generally (as in on average) will encode at about half real time. Thats 12.5 fps for those on PAL. This is dependent on the settings but I have never had it run slower than 8 fps. This is on a frame size of QCIF or 352 x 288. DV will encode at about 5 fps full PAL 720 x 576 and this is on my PIII 1 Ghz with 512 PC133 Ram. This is encoding either AVI or QT. However if you use QT to code I find it can slow right down or at least it seems to take longer. (Not that I sit and watch the little blue squares) On the NLE's it shows me the frame rate. So compared to the other codecs I put this at about 8 on a scale of one to ten. Nothing beats smart rendering on Ulead MSP or Premiere when it doesnt have to re-encode. Of course thats unfair as it not really encoding anything just copying bits of the already encoded file As far as decode speed goes all I can say is that it plays back at 25fps with no dropouts in either video or audio and starts fast in WMP and a bit longer in QT (2-3 seconds) I dont want to get into product bashing I am only reporting the results as I percieve them my advice to anyone wanting to know is try it for yourself and see. You will be surprised. <p>----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Miller" <dan@on2.com> To: <theora@xiph.org> Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 1:55 AM Subject: RE: [theora] Theora vs. Nullsoft NSV <p><p>> * One thing not mentioned by those who tested the codecs is encode and decode speed. This is a primary factor in designing a codec. It's relatively easy to develop a new codec that beats existing products at bitrate/quality if you don't care at all about performance. The challenge is to create a codec that is superior at quality/bitrate, but is also low enough in complexity to work well on typical platforms of the day. My feeling is that VP3 is pretty good in this area too, but could be improved. Our hope is to increase quality/bitrate of Theora without substantially adding to the CPU requirements. Comments on this strategy are welcome.> > - dbm--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'theora-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered. <p><p><p> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 4205 bytes Desc: winmail.dat Url : http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/theora/attachments/20021113/2af5fa80/winmail-0001.bin