Us broadcasters/providers are as open source minded as it gets, we can smell draconians a mile away and well, nullsoft isn't smelling to good right now and we all know it. Now is the time to market the icecast yp and get on the bandwagon to promote this software, 9x out of 10 i try and sell this product over shoutcast/real media etc..... because of its versatility and most importantly the community involved (developers to end users). Its been sometime since i have read a good thread over at forums.winamp.com, there mods act like there demy-gods and hardly even take any decent amount of time to explain theory or reasoning, its always a quick witted snippy remark, anyhoo enough ranting about that. bottom line is the shoutcast yp has always been more popular because other 3rd party companies endorse (AOL)and therefore include yp.shoutcast.com as this incredible music source, (which it is), and act like its the only one out there. Surely since xiph is already involved with real networks, maybe something could get going on that direction, as far as promoting the dir at icecast.org as a viable reliable source for multi format internet radio. Choices and options has always been what the internet is about, nullsoft is just cutting there own throat and making it a limited infrastructure, which will undoubtedly make icecast a very inviting solution in the future. Im just glad we have another option to choose from so a big thank you to everyone at xiph. <p>Regards Dave St John Mediacast1 Administrator Need Support? please visit our helpdesk area http://mediacast1.com/helpdesk ----- Original Message ----- From: "oddsock" <oddsock@oddsock.org> To: <icecast-dev@xiph.org> Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [icecast-dev] trouble in nullsoft land. <p>> well, I'm not sure that's the reasoning...> > from Tom P : > "i'm making changes to yp which will detect the presence of mp3pro withina> non-encapsulated stream and prohibit its listing. nsv/nsa is an open > protocol and the authors who wish to broadcast with this format should a) > rewrite the stream provider to encapsulate and broadcast in the > encapsulated protocol, b) discuss with christophe which identifiers should > be included for formal support of the protocol within NSV, c) create a > playback plugin for winamp which supports the nsv/nsa encapsulation and > streaming, and d) let me know when all of these things happen so I can > formally expose these streams via the directory to players which properly > support them. " > > this tells me that they are not trying to alienate non-Shoutcast source > clients (stream providers he calls them), but rather get people to adopt > the NSV encapsulation protocol.. Speaking as a source client developer > and knowing many of the other developers that develop source clients, I > think they overestimate the willingness to move to their undocumented and > proprietary encapsulation protocol, when we have something so open andfree> as ogg... > > I also just don't get the desire to move to mp3pro..I mean, if you are > going to make your listeners download a plugin to listen to your station, > why not just switch to vorbis ? Sure, you can still listen to an mp3pro > stream with a normal mp3 player, but geeze, who'd want to ? As it stands, > I think the only source client that supports mp3pro is Spacial Audio's > encoder...And for what it's worth, you CAN stream mp3pro to icecast2 :) > > oddsock > > > At 03:19 PM 3/7/2004, you wrote: > >On Sun, 7 Mar 2004, oddsock wrote: > > > > > neat, how ironic is it that you can stream mp3pro with the ShoutcastDNAS,> > > but their YP will not let you list if you do so...talk about yourmixed> > > messages... > > > >I think what they're trying to do here is not only block non-SCDNAS > >servers, but also as many non-Shoutcast sources as they can. Think about > >it - if you're streaming MP3Pro without it being NSV-encapsulated, you're > >not using a Nullsoft tool to do it. > > > >This kind of one-eyed behaviour will hopefully push people in thedirection> >of finding alternatives. > > > >Geoff. > > > >--- >8 ---- > >List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ > >icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ > >To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to > >'icecast-dev-request@xiph.org' > >containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject isneeded.> >Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered. > > > --- >8 ---- > List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ > icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ > To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to'icecast-dev-request@xiph.org'> containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. > Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered. ><p>--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'icecast-dev-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
On Sun, 7 Mar 2004, oddsock wrote:> neat, how ironic is it that you can stream mp3pro with the Shoutcast DNAS, > but their YP will not let you list if you do so...talk about your mixed > messages...I think what they're trying to do here is not only block non-SCDNAS servers, but also as many non-Shoutcast sources as they can. Think about it - if you're streaming MP3Pro without it being NSV-encapsulated, you're not using a Nullsoft tool to do it. This kind of one-eyed behaviour will hopefully push people in the direction of finding alternatives. Geoff. --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'icecast-dev-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
Brainstorming Idea: Possibly add an xml api to the current yp logic, that way 3rd party providers could parse the stations in the yp off icecast.org in there media players. of course a plugin for winamp would be the first obvious choice(since the already have there own media library but uses yp.shoutcast.com), but others would follow. I remember seeing something previously at dir.xiph.org but wasnt carried over to the new dir at icecast.org. We would be willing to donate server space and bandwidth for the yp dir at icecast.org, email me offlist whoever is in charge of the icecast.org website if interested. <p><p><p>Regards Dave St John Mediacast1 Administrator Need Support? please visit our helpdesk area http://mediacast1.com/helpdesk ----- Original Message ----- From: "oddsock" <oddsock@oddsock.org> To: <icecast-dev@xiph.org> Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [icecast-dev] trouble in nullsoft land. <p>> well, I'm not sure that's the reasoning...> > from Tom P : > "i'm making changes to yp which will detect the presence of mp3pro withina> non-encapsulated stream and prohibit its listing. nsv/nsa is an open > protocol and the authors who wish to broadcast with this format should a) > rewrite the stream provider to encapsulate and broadcast in the > encapsulated protocol, b) discuss with christophe which identifiers should > be included for formal support of the protocol within NSV, c) create a > playback plugin for winamp which supports the nsv/nsa encapsulation and > streaming, and d) let me know when all of these things happen so I can > formally expose these streams via the directory to players which properly > support them. " > > this tells me that they are not trying to alienate non-Shoutcast source > clients (stream providers he calls them), but rather get people to adopt > the NSV encapsulation protocol.. Speaking as a source client developer > and knowing many of the other developers that develop source clients, I > think they overestimate the willingness to move to their undocumented and > proprietary encapsulation protocol, when we have something so open andfree> as ogg... > > I also just don't get the desire to move to mp3pro..I mean, if you are > going to make your listeners download a plugin to listen to your station, > why not just switch to vorbis ? Sure, you can still listen to an mp3pro > stream with a normal mp3 player, but geeze, who'd want to ? As it stands, > I think the only source client that supports mp3pro is Spacial Audio's > encoder...And for what it's worth, you CAN stream mp3pro to icecast2 :) > > oddsock > > > At 03:19 PM 3/7/2004, you wrote: > >On Sun, 7 Mar 2004, oddsock wrote: > > > > > neat, how ironic is it that you can stream mp3pro with the ShoutcastDNAS,> > > but their YP will not let you list if you do so...talk about yourmixed> > > messages... > > > >I think what they're trying to do here is not only block non-SCDNAS > >servers, but also as many non-Shoutcast sources as they can. Think about > >it - if you're streaming MP3Pro without it being NSV-encapsulated, you're > >not using a Nullsoft tool to do it. > > > >This kind of one-eyed behaviour will hopefully push people in thedirection> >of finding alternatives. > > > >Geoff. > > > >--- >8 ---- > >List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ > >icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ > >To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to > >'icecast-dev-request@xiph.org' > >containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject isneeded.> >Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered. > > > --- >8 ---- > List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ > icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ > To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to'icecast-dev-request@xiph.org'> containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. > Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered. ><p>--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'icecast-dev-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
well, I'm not sure that's the reasoning... from Tom P : "i'm making changes to yp which will detect the presence of mp3pro within a non-encapsulated stream and prohibit its listing. nsv/nsa is an open protocol and the authors who wish to broadcast with this format should a) rewrite the stream provider to encapsulate and broadcast in the encapsulated protocol, b) discuss with christophe which identifiers should be included for formal support of the protocol within NSV, c) create a playback plugin for winamp which supports the nsv/nsa encapsulation and streaming, and d) let me know when all of these things happen so I can formally expose these streams via the directory to players which properly support them. " this tells me that they are not trying to alienate non-Shoutcast source clients (stream providers he calls them), but rather get people to adopt the NSV encapsulation protocol.. Speaking as a source client developer and knowing many of the other developers that develop source clients, I think they overestimate the willingness to move to their undocumented and proprietary encapsulation protocol, when we have something so open and free as ogg... I also just don't get the desire to move to mp3pro..I mean, if you are going to make your listeners download a plugin to listen to your station, why not just switch to vorbis ? Sure, you can still listen to an mp3pro stream with a normal mp3 player, but geeze, who'd want to ? As it stands, I think the only source client that supports mp3pro is Spacial Audio's encoder...And for what it's worth, you CAN stream mp3pro to icecast2 :) oddsock <p>At 03:19 PM 3/7/2004, you wrote:>On Sun, 7 Mar 2004, oddsock wrote: > > > neat, how ironic is it that you can stream mp3pro with the Shoutcast DNAS, > > but their YP will not let you list if you do so...talk about your mixed > > messages... > >I think what they're trying to do here is not only block non-SCDNAS >servers, but also as many non-Shoutcast sources as they can. Think about >it - if you're streaming MP3Pro without it being NSV-encapsulated, you're >not using a Nullsoft tool to do it. > >This kind of one-eyed behaviour will hopefully push people in the direction >of finding alternatives. > >Geoff. > >--- >8 ---- >List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ >icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ >To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to >'icecast-dev-request@xiph.org' >containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. >Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.<p>--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'icecast-dev-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
On Mar 7, 2004, at 4:36 PM, oddsock wrote:> well, I'm not sure that's the reasoning... > > from Tom P : > "i'm making changes to yp which will detect the presence of mp3pro > within a non-encapsulated stream and prohibit its listing. nsv/nsa is > an open protocol...........What's the purpose of this NSV protocol? Is it some sort of container protocol that Nullsoft is pushing as some "standard" in audio webcasting? I'm trying really hard not to get into a soapbox, but why is it that the audio streaming community has such a hard-on for so many protocols. I'm not taking about codecs, I'm talking about ways to get the content from point A to point B. Off the top of my head, we have: ICY vs. HTTP. UDP vs. inline metadata RTP/SDP vs. TCP This YP who hates that YP Poor protocol documentation on almost all of the above. Spite on a policy level between software designers (nullsoft vs. icecast vs. $codec etc.) And how many RFCs or IETF drafts are written on the subject? A quick search reveals SDP/RTP RFCs and _that's it_. I'm of the opinion that streaming audio on the Internet is neither as "free" or as "open" as people think it is. Everyone is hold up in their own sandbox, as it were, and it's just being perpetuated. /dale --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'icecast-dev-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.