Hi guys, What do you think about this structure: http://wiki.centos.org/FrontPageProposal?action=AttachFile&do=get&tar... Cheers, al.
On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, Alain Reguera Delgado wrote: > What do you think about this structure: > > http://wiki.centos.org/FrontPageProposal?action=AttachFile&do=get&tar... It is definitely an improvement over what we have now, but in my opinion there are too many blocks. And the documentation block looks like it is a permanent menu, while it is not. Again, I believe we need a left-handside permanent menu that helps navigate the content. And the content is the first people need to see. So I would move the screenshot to the right, put a small introduction on the left, and immediately show not more than 7 sections. So that people in a glimp of an eye, can see what choices they have and make a choice. The importance of not more than 7 links is that people can remember and return to those 7 choices. Too many links on a frontpage trembles that structure. (the left-handside menu of course does not have to be on the frontpage if it is in a permantent block on the left for every subsequent page, still having it there helps for consistency) -- -- dag wieers, dag@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors]
On Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 04:49:40PM +0200, Dag Wieers enlightened us: > > What do you think about this structure: > > http://wiki.centos.org/FrontPageProposal?action=AttachFile&do=get&tar... > > It is definitely an improvement over what we have now, but in my opinion > there are too many blocks. And the documentation block looks like it is a > permanent menu, while it is not. > > Again, I believe we need a left-handside permanent menu that helps > navigate the content. And the content is the first people need to see. So > I would move the screenshot to the right, put a small introduction on the > left, and immediately show not more than 7 sections. So that people in a > glimp of an eye, can see what choices they have and make a choice. > > The importance of not more than 7 links is that people can remember > and return to those 7 choices. Too many links on a frontpage trembles that > structure. > Not to mention the 7 +/- 2 rule[1] of how much data we can hold in short term memory to process. No, I'm not taking Educational Psychology classes this quarter, I swear! Matt [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magical_Number_Seven%2C_Plus_or_Minus_Two -- Matt Hyclak Department of Mathematics Department of Social Work Ohio University (740) 593-1263
On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, Matt Hyclak wrote: > On Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 04:49:40PM +0200, Dag Wieers enlightened us: > > > What do you think about this structure: > > > http://wiki.centos.org/FrontPageProposal?action=AttachFile&do=get&tar... > > > > It is definitely an improvement over what we have now, but in my opinion > > there are too many blocks. And the documentation block looks like it is a > > permanent menu, while it is not. > > > > Again, I believe we need a left-handside permanent menu that helps > > navigate the content. And the content is the first people need to see. So > > I would move the screenshot to the right, put a small introduction on the > > left, and immediately show not more than 7 sections. So that people in a > > glimp of an eye, can see what choices they have and make a choice. > > > > The importance of not more than 7 links is that people can remember > > and return to those 7 choices. Too many links on a frontpage trembles that > > structure. > > > > Not to mention the 7 +/- 2 rule[1] of how much data we can hold in short term > memory to process. No, I'm not taking Educational Psychology classes this > quarter, I swear! Hey, that's interesting. I don't know how I came up with 7, but I felt that more than 7 would probably be too much. Funny that this actually has been part of a psychological study :) PS That obviously means that I have an average capacity :/ -- -- dag wieers, dag@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors]
On 10/12/07, Dag Wieers <dag@centos.org> wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 04:49:40PM +0200, Dag Wieers enlightened us: > > > > What do you think about this structure: > > > > http://wiki.centos.org/FrontPageProposal?action=AttachFile&do=get&tar... ... > > > And the documentation block looks like it is a > > > permanent menu, while it is not. What do you mean with permanet exactly ?
On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, Alain Reguera Delgado wrote: > On 10/12/07, Dag Wieers <dag@centos.org> wrote: > > > On Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 04:49:40PM +0200, Dag Wieers enlightened us: > > > > > What do you think about this structure: > > > > > http://wiki.centos.org/FrontPageProposal?action=AttachFile&do=get&tar... > ... > > > > And the documentation block looks like it is a > > > > permanent menu, while it is not. > > What do you mean with permanet exactly ? One that is available for every wiki document. The content does not have to be permanent (per se), but at least the location and functionality should. That is part of helping the visitor find its way. -- -- dag wieers, dag@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors]
On 10/12/07, Dag Wieers <dag@centos.org> wrote: > On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, Alain Reguera Delgado wrote: > > > On 10/12/07, Dag Wieers <dag@centos.org> wrote: > > > > On Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 04:49:40PM +0200, Dag Wieers enlightened us: > > > > > > What do you think about this structure: > > > > > > http://wiki.centos.org/FrontPageProposal?action=AttachFile&do=get&tar... > > ... > > > > > And the documentation block looks like it is a > > > > > permanent menu, while it is not. > > > > What do you mean with permanet exactly ? > > One that is available for every wiki document. The content does not have > to be permanent (per se), but at least the location and functionality > should. That is part of helping the visitor find its way. The link Documentation in the NaviBar is always visible. In the FrontPage we include some content about Documentation for quicker access. When the visitor goes inside the wiki, the Documentation link and others defined are still in the NaviBar, so the user can use it wherever he whats. The same case of RecentChanges actually. Actually the NaviBar is horizontally, so reader's order of preference is from left to right below logo image. In a left sidebar design it would be from up to down at left side. In each case we can add links to NaviBar, or remove default links and add ours ... Maybe we need to consider what we want ... delete default MoinMoin links (RecentChanges, FindPage, etc) and adding just Documentation, Donate, etc (always less than 7 or six links as moin recommend) OR leave default links and add ours after them (still 2 or 3 links more). If we put just our links (Documentation, Donate, etc) it would be a very CentOS NaviBar ... but make it a little difficult to users a quickly access to some important wiki pages like RecentChanges, FindPages, HelpContents, etc ... of course we could put this important wiki links on some clear place at FrontPage content section (not at NaviBar) ... this would make one step longer to access pages like RecentChanges but users will access CentOS contents through NaviBar from anywhere with just one click and we could keep NaviBar under 6 or 7 links. Maybe we can put CentOS important links like Documentation first and then wiki important links like RecentChanges. What do you think ? Do we still need a vertically NaviBar ? Could the horizontal NaviBar do the trick ?
On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, Alain Reguera Delgado wrote: > On 10/12/07, Dag Wieers <dag@centos.org> wrote: > > On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, Alain Reguera Delgado wrote: > > > On 10/12/07, Dag Wieers <dag@centos.org> wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 04:49:40PM +0200, Dag Wieers enlightened us: > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you think about this structure: > > > > > > > http://wiki.centos.org/FrontPageProposal?action=AttachFile&do=get&tar... > > > ... > > > > > > And the documentation block looks like it is a > > > > > > permanent menu, while it is not. > > > > > > What do you mean with permanet exactly ? > > > > One that is available for every wiki document. The content does not have > > to be permanent (per se), but at least the location and functionality > > should. That is part of helping the visitor find its way. > > The link Documentation in the NaviBar is always visible. In the > FrontPage we include some content about Documentation for quicker > access. When the visitor goes inside the wiki, the Documentation link > and others defined are still in the NaviBar, so the user can use it > wherever he whats. The same case of RecentChanges actually. > > Actually the NaviBar is horizontally, so reader's order of preference > is from left to right below logo image. In a left sidebar design it > would be from up to down at left side. > > In each case we can add links to NaviBar, or remove default links and > add ours ... Maybe we need to consider what we want ... delete default > MoinMoin links (RecentChanges, FindPage, etc) and adding just > Documentation, Donate, etc (always less than 7 or six links as moin > recommend) OR leave default links and add ours after them (still 2 or > 3 links more). > > If we put just our links (Documentation, Donate, etc) it would be a > very CentOS NaviBar ... but make it a little difficult to users a > quickly access to some important wiki pages like RecentChanges, > FindPages, HelpContents, etc ... of course we could put this important > wiki links on some clear place at FrontPage content section (not at > NaviBar) ... this would make one step longer to access pages like > RecentChanges but users will access CentOS contents through NaviBar > from anywhere with just one click and we could keep NaviBar under 6 or > 7 links. > > Maybe we can put CentOS important links like Documentation first and > then wiki important links like RecentChanges. > > What do you think ? Do we still need a vertically NaviBar ? Could the > horizontal NaviBar do the trick ? I think we do not have to reinvent any wheel. Most users are accustomed to this: --------------------------------------------------------------- CentOS wiki /logo login | search: _________ --------------- ----------------------------------------------- MENU: | Welcome to the CentOS wiki. ------------- download | a blah blah introduction text. | random | documentation | You can find information yada | screenshot | contribute | yada | | promote | | | donate | ------------- about | | _Download CentOS now._ Find out how to download | the latest CentOS release and updates.... EVENTS: | T-DOSE 2007 | _Documentation on CentOS._ Help yourself with LinuxWorld NL | our FAQ and Tips-and-tricks. Browse to our.... FOSDEM | | _Contribute to CentOS._ Make yourself useful | and provide bugreports and feedback. Join.... NEWS: | Item 1 great | _Promote CentOS._ Show Centos to people and Item 2 cool | usergroups. Design flyers, stickers and.... Item 3 neat | | _Donate to CentOS._ Provide us with the funds | we need so hard to operate this project.... PLANET: | Post 1 mighty | _About CentOS._ What is CentOS? Who is Post 2 fancy | running this project? Who can I contact.... Post 3 wicked | | --------------- ---------------------------------------------------- When a user is logged on, he gets the extra navigation bar --------------------------------------------------------------- CentOS wiki / logo login | search: _________ --------------- ----------------------------------------------- MENU: | Edit | Info | Subscribe | RecentChanges | ... download ----------------------------------------------- documentation | Welcome to the CentOS wiki. ------------- contribute | a blah blah introduction text. | random | promote | You can find information yada | screenshot | . . . . . . . . and so on ... This is simple and what most people expect for a frontpage. And that is *good*. We don't have to go against what people already expect and now. This is an informational site, not a site to make people change their habits because defaults are boring. I like conventional things to accomodate people, not too many information and not too many links. People should feel at ease, pleasant. Sorry for the lousy ascii-art, I guess if I was good in graphics, than the graphics would probably stand in the way of the message :-) BTW Thanks for your patience, I can imagine that it is not easy with a bunch of perfectionists (like me) ;-) -- -- dag wieers, dag@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors]
On 10/12/07, Dag Wieers <dag@centos.org> wrote: > On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, Alain Reguera Delgado wrote: > > What do you think ? Do we still need a vertically NaviBar ? Could the > > horizontal NaviBar do the trick ? > > I think we do not have to reinvent any wheel. Most users are accustomed to > this: > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > CentOS wiki /logo login | search: _________ > --------------- ----------------------------------------------- > MENU: | Welcome to the CentOS wiki. ------------- > download | a blah blah introduction text. | random | > documentation | You can find information yada | screenshot | > contribute | yada | | > promote | | | > donate | ------------- > about | > | _Download CentOS now._ Find out how to download > | the latest CentOS release and updates.... > EVENTS: | > T-DOSE 2007 | _Documentation on CentOS._ Help yourself with > LinuxWorld NL | our FAQ and Tips-and-tricks. Browse to our.... > FOSDEM | > | _Contribute to CentOS._ Make yourself useful > | and provide bugreports and feedback. Join.... > NEWS: | > Item 1 great | _Promote CentOS._ Show Centos to people and > Item 2 cool | usergroups. Design flyers, stickers and.... > Item 3 neat | > | _Donate to CentOS._ Provide us with the funds > | we need so hard to operate this project.... > PLANET: | > Post 1 mighty | _About CentOS._ What is CentOS? Who is > Post 2 fancy | running this project? Who can I contact.... > Post 3 wicked | > | > --------------- ---------------------------------------------------- > > When a user is logged on, he gets the extra navigation bar > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > CentOS wiki / logo login | search: _________ > --------------- ----------------------------------------------- > MENU: | Edit | Info | Subscribe | RecentChanges | ... > download ----------------------------------------------- > documentation | Welcome to the CentOS wiki. ------------- > contribute | a blah blah introduction text. | random | > promote | You can find information yada | screenshot | > . . . . > . . . . > > and so on ... cool graphs! Dag ... I have a better/clean idea now ... this will require some theme modifications. I don't know python, neither moinmoin template syntax. I'll try to read some themes and combine things ... to see what thing gets out of here. > This is simple and what most people expect for a frontpage. And that is > *good*. We don't have to go against what people already expect and now. > This is an informational site, not a site to make people change their > habits because defaults are boring. > > I like conventional things to accomodate people, not too many information > and not too many links. People should feel at ease, pleasant. I am completely agree ... would be good to know what others think about it. Personally, I like a lot how this content distribution looks!!. Cheers, al.
Dag Wieers wrote: > I think we do not have to reinvent any wheel. Most users are accustomed to > this: But that *would* mean reinventing the wheel (at least in Moin), while the Navibar already is there *and* is available on all pages without further intervention. True, the contents of the navibar have to be done in wikiconfig.py and aren't easily editable, but that's about the only drawback I see. > EVENTS: | > T-DOSE 2007 | _Documentation on CentOS._ Help yourself with > LinuxWorld NL | our FAQ and Tips-and-tricks. Browse to our.... > FOSDEM | > | _Contribute to CentOS._ Make yourself useful > | and provide bugreports and feedback. Join.... > NEWS: | > Item 1 great | _Promote CentOS._ Show Centos to people and > Item 2 cool | usergroups. Design flyers, stickers and.... > Item 3 neat | > | _Donate to CentOS._ Provide us with the funds > | we need so hard to operate this project.... > PLANET: | > Post 1 mighty | _About CentOS._ What is CentOS? Who is > Post 2 fancy | running this project? Who can I contact.... > Post 3 wicked | I haven't seen a theme for moin yet which is able to do that. The two or three themes which have sidebars *only* have the NaviBar in there. What could be possible is a table which has it's own CSS information and which then might be put at the left or the right side of the page. But: If you want this content on *all* pages, all pages have to be touched. > BTW Thanks for your patience, I can imagine that it is not easy with a > bunch of perfectionists (like me) ;-) But do you have *any* idea on how to accomplish that in Moin? >:) Cheers, Ralph -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos-docs/attachments/20071015/50498759/a...
On Mon, 15 Oct 2007, Ralph Angenendt wrote: > Dag Wieers wrote: > > I think we do not have to reinvent any wheel. Most users are accustomed to > > this: > > But that *would* mean reinventing the wheel (at least in Moin), while > the Navibar already is there *and* is available on all pages without > further intervention. True, the contents of the navibar have to be done > in wikiconfig.py and aren't easily editable, but that's about the only > drawback I see. Sorry but I find it a bad strategy if we have to adapt the layout and friendliness of the wiki because of technical issues with the wiki software. Not using a righthand-side menu because there is something else in place by default seems the wrong reason. > > EVENTS: | > > T-DOSE 2007 | _Documentation on CentOS._ Help yourself with > > LinuxWorld NL | our FAQ and Tips-and-tricks. Browse to our.... > > FOSDEM | > > | _Contribute to CentOS._ Make yourself useful > > | and provide bugreports and feedback. Join.... > > NEWS: | > > Item 1 great | _Promote CentOS._ Show Centos to people and > > Item 2 cool | usergroups. Design flyers, stickers and.... > > Item 3 neat | > > | _Donate to CentOS._ Provide us with the funds > > | we need so hard to operate this project.... > > PLANET: | > > Post 1 mighty | _About CentOS._ What is CentOS? Who is > > Post 2 fancy | running this project? Who can I contact.... > > Post 3 wicked | > > I haven't seen a theme for moin yet which is able to do that. The two or > three themes which have sidebars *only* have the NaviBar in there. What > could be possible is a table which has it's own CSS information and > which then might be put at the left or the right side of the page. But: > If you want this content on *all* pages, all pages have to be touched. That seems stupid. I doubt that MoinMoin has this limitation, otherwise I have to question why we used MoinMoin in the first place :( > > BTW Thanks for your patience, I can imagine that it is not easy with a > > bunch of perfectionists (like me) ;-) > > But do you have *any* idea on how to accomplish that in Moin? >:) The MoinMoin website advertises 2 wikis that have a proper menu: cacert.org (doesn't look like a wiki, that's good) kernelnewbies.org (good wiki-structure menu) It would be a shame if we would not do it because we don't know how to do it. If we decide to do it like that, at least we can look for someone who can look into it and in the meantime do it different. -- -- dag wieers, dag@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors]
Dag Wieers wrote: > The MoinMoin website advertises 2 wikis that have a proper menu: > > cacert.org (doesn't look like a wiki, that's good) That's because it isn't a wiki. <http://wiki.cacert.org/wiki/> is and it shows the problem I tried to illustrate above (that seems to be a slightly modified rightbar theme as is already present in Moin). > kernelnewbies.org (good wiki-structure menu) And they do it like I proposed (not really, I'd like to see their wikiconfig.py): complete content is in a table with two columns where the wiki part is in the right column, the left bar doesn't seem to be editable via the wiki. Just look at the "Raw version" in the drop down menu - it only shows you the stuff in the right column. > It would be a shame if we would not do it because we don't know how > to do it. If we decide to do it like that, at least we can look for > someone who can look into it and in the meantime do it different. And that is where I really would like to hear some more opinions, this discussion up to now was only a three man show :) Cheers, Ralph -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos-docs/attachments/20071015/e7502b48/a...
On 10/15/07, Ralph Angenendt <ra+centos@br-online.de> wrote: > And that is where I really would like to hear some more opinions, this > discussion up to now was only a three man show :) Guess other people (including myself) were refraining from saying something because it *was* a three man show. :-) Now that you mentioned, I want to chime in. As for a frontpage, I like that of Scientifix Linux. https://www.scientificlinux.org/ I know it is not a wiki but it's a web page. I just wanted to say that this nothing-fancy, simple-looking page is functionally good enough and I could find easily what I was looking for upon my first visit. In that regard the left navigation bar was a big plus. Akemi
On 10/12/07, Dag Wieers <dag@centos.org> wrote: > On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, Alain Reguera Delgado wrote: > > > What do you think about this structure: > > > > http://wiki.centos.org/FrontPageProposal?action=AttachFile&do=get&tar... > > It is definitely an improvement over what we have now, but in my opinion > there are too many blocks. And the documentation block looks like it is a > permanent menu, while it is not. > > Again, I believe we need a left-handside permanent menu that helps > navigate the content. And the content is the first people need to see. So > I would move the screenshot to the right, put a small introduction on the > left, and immediately show not more than 7 sections. So that people in a > glimp of an eye, can see what choices they have and make a choice. > > The importance of not more than 7 links is that people can remember > and return to those 7 choices. Too many links on a frontpage trembles that > structure. Actually we could have those links. See the horizontal navigation bar, just below logo image. They are: RecentPages, FindPages, SiteNavigation, HelpContent and we could add Documentation, Download, Contribute, Promote, Translate, About, and others ... the list of all links is greater than 7. We need to decide which one will end up putting there. What links would you like to put there (explicitly) ? > (the left-handside menu of course does not have to be on the frontpage if > it is in a permantent block on the left for every subsequent page, still > having it there helps for consistency) My vote is for consistency and so for a left-sidebar in all pages, in a left-sidebar design.
Alain Reguera Delgado wrote: > My vote is for consistency and so for a left-sidebar in all pages, in > a left-sidebar design. In my opinion side bars eat up too much space. If you don't open your browser in full screen, stuff tends to get ugly (or you have to scroll sideways). I wonder if the NaviBar can be replicated on the bottom of the page (probably not), because that would be great for larger pages ... Ralph -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos-docs/attachments/20071015/47b3cff2/a...
On 10/15/07, Ralph Angenendt <ra+centos@br-online.de> wrote: > I wonder if the NaviBar can be replicated on the bottom of the page > (probably not), because that would be great for larger pages ... Hi Ralph, could you try the following version of modern-CentOS theme, I think it does that: http://wiki.centos.org/FrontPageProposal?action=AttachFile&do=get&tar... Would you like to have a wiki page dedicated to modern-CentOS theme ? Cheers, al.
On 10/15/07, Alain Reguera Delgado <alain.reguera@gmail.com> wrote: > On 10/15/07, Ralph Angenendt <ra+centos@br-online.de> wrote: > > I wonder if the NaviBar can be replicated on the bottom of the page > > (probably not), because that would be great for larger pages ... > > Hi Ralph, could you try the following version of modern-CentOS theme, > I think it does that: > > http://wiki.centos.org/FrontPageProposal?action=AttachFile&do=get&tar... Well, when the user is logout the navibar looks a little ugly over credits. This is fixed in version 1.5-1. Please test it: http://wiki.centos.org/FrontPageProposal?action=AttachFile&do=get&tar... A screenshot of modern-CentOS-1.5-1 theme is available here: http://wiki.centos.org/FrontPageProposal?action=AttachFile&do=get&tar... Thanks, al.
Alain Reguera Delgado wrote: > On 10/15/07, Ralph Angenendt <ra+centos@br-online.de> wrote: > > I wonder if the NaviBar can be replicated on the bottom of the page > > (probably not), because that would be great for larger pages ... > > Hi Ralph, could you try the following version of modern-CentOS theme, > I think it does that: > > http://wiki.centos.org/FrontPageProposal?action=AttachFile&do=get&tar... > > Would you like to have a wiki page dedicated to modern-CentOS theme ? I might not be able to do that until Friday - or if that doesn't work it'll be sunday or monday. Sorry, job is eating me a bit at the moment and I'm on limited Internet access at the moment. Cheers, Ralph -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos-docs/attachments/20071016/e386bea8/a...