zfs discuss - Oct 2012 - suggestions for e-SATA HBA card on x86/x64

I have just acquired a new JBOD box that will be used as a media
center/storage for home use only on my x86/x64 box running OpenIndiana
b151a7 currently.

Its strictly a JBOD, no hw raid options, with an eSATA port to each drive.

I am looking for suggestions for an HBA card with at least (2), but (4)
external eSATA ports would be nice.  I know enough to stay away from the
port expander things.

I do not need the HBA to support any internal drives.

In reviewing the archives/past post, it seems that LSI is the way to go.
 I would like to spend USD $200 - $300, but would spend more if
necessary for a good, trouble free HBA.  I made this comment as I went
to look at some of the LSI cards previously mentioned, and found they
were priced $500 - $600 and up.

TIA for any pointers,

Jerry

On 10/25/2012 05:59 AM, Jerry Kemp wrote:
> I have just acquired a new JBOD box that will be used as a media
> center/storage for home use only on my x86/x64 box running OpenIndiana
> b151a7 currently.
> 
> Its strictly a JBOD, no hw raid options, with an eSATA port to each drive.
> 
> I am looking for suggestions for an HBA card with at least (2), but (4)
> external eSATA ports would be nice.  I know enough to stay away from the
> port expander things.
> 
> I do not need the HBA to support any internal drives.
> 
> In reviewing the archives/past post, it seems that LSI is the way to go.
>  I would like to spend USD $200 - $300, but would spend more if
> necessary for a good, trouble free HBA.  I made this comment as I went
> to look at some of the LSI cards previously mentioned, and found they
> were priced $500 - $600 and up.
> 
> TIA for any pointers,
Look for Dell''s "6Gbps SAS HBA" cards. They can be had new
for <$100 and
are essentially rebranded LSI 9200-8e cards. Always try to look for OEM
cards with LSI, because buying directly from them is incredibly expensive.

Cheers,
--
Saso

On Thu, 25 Oct 2012, Sa?o Kiselkov wrote:
>
> Look for Dell''s "6Gbps SAS HBA" cards. They can be had
new for <$100 and
> are essentially rebranded LSI 9200-8e cards. Always try to look for OEM
> cards with LSI, because buying directly from them is incredibly expensive.
Do these support eSATA?  It seems unlikely.

I purchased an eSATA card (from SIIG, http://www.siig.com/) with the 
intention to try it with Solaris 10 to see if it would work but have 
not tried plugging it in yet.

It seems likely that a numer of cheap eSATA cards may work.

Bob
-- 
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/

On 10/25/2012 04:09 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2012, Sa?o Kiselkov wrote:
>>
>> Look for Dell''s "6Gbps SAS HBA" cards. They can be
had new for <$100 and
>> are essentially rebranded LSI 9200-8e cards. Always try to look for OEM
>> cards with LSI, because buying directly from them is incredibly
>> expensive.
> 
> Do these support eSATA?  It seems unlikely.
eSATA is just SATA with a different connector - all you need is a cheap
conversion cable or appropriate eSATA<->SATA bracket, e.g.
http://www.satacables.com/html/sata-pci-brackets.html

Cheers,
--
Saso

On 10/25/2012 04:11 PM, Sa?o Kiselkov wrote:
> On 10/25/2012 04:09 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Oct 2012, Sa?o Kiselkov wrote:
>>>
>>> Look for Dell''s "6Gbps SAS HBA" cards. They can
be had new for <$100 and
>>> are essentially rebranded LSI 9200-8e cards. Always try to look for
OEM
>>> cards with LSI, because buying directly from them is incredibly
>>> expensive.
>>
>> Do these support eSATA?  It seems unlikely.
> 
> eSATA is just SATA with a different connector - all you need is a cheap
> conversion cable or appropriate eSATA<->SATA bracket, e.g.
> http://www.satacables.com/html/sata-pci-brackets.html
P.S. if you''re going to use a port conversion bracket, I suggest you
get
the internal version of the SAS card (i.e. the Dell PERC H200) - that
ships with two SFF-8087 connectors. Get a SFF-8087 breakout cable to
split out the individual SATA connections (e.g.
http://www.ipcdirect.net/catalog/c-sff8087-4sb.jpg ) and just hook those
up to the SATA<->eSATA bracket. From there on you can take it using
standard eSATA cabling directly to your JBOD.

Cheers,
--
Saso

On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 10:13 AM, Sa?o Kiselkov <skiselkov.ml at
gmail.com>wrote:
> On 10/25/2012 04:11 PM, Sa?o Kiselkov wrote:
> > On 10/25/2012 04:09 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
> >> On Thu, 25 Oct 2012, Sa?o Kiselkov wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Look for Dell''s "6Gbps SAS HBA" cards. They
can be had new for <$100
> and
> >>> are essentially rebranded LSI 9200-8e cards. Always try to
look for OEM
> >>> cards with LSI, because buying directly from them is
incredibly
> >>> expensive.
> >>
> >> Do these support eSATA?  It seems unlikely.
> >
> > eSATA is just SATA with a different connector - all you need is a
cheap
> > conversion cable or appropriate eSATA<->SATA bracket, e.g.
> > http://www.satacables.com/html/sata-pci-brackets.html
>
> P.S. if you''re going to use a port conversion bracket, I suggest
you get
> the internal version of the SAS card (i.e. the Dell PERC H200) - that
> ships with two SFF-8087 connectors. Get a SFF-8087 breakout cable to
> split out the individual SATA connections (e.g.
> http://www.ipcdirect.net/catalog/c-sff8087-4sb.jpg ) and just hook those
> up to the SATA<->eSATA bracket. From there on you can take it using
> standard eSATA cabling directly to your JBOD.
>
You could also do something like converting an 8087 to an 8088 and get an
8088 <-> 4x eSATA breakout cable. That would save a lot of space in your
case if you''re going to have more than 8 drives in this rig. Random
googling: http://www.pc-pitstop.com/sas_cables_adapters/AD8788-2.asp and
http://www.amazon.com/HighPoint-External-Mini-SAS-SFF8088-Ext-MS-1MES/dp/B000JQ51CM
or
something.

>
> Cheers,
> --
> Saso
> _______________________________________________
> zfs-discuss mailing list
> zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
>


-- 
Patrick Hahn
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On 10/25/2012 04:28 PM, Patrick Hahn wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 10:13 AM, Sa?o Kiselkov <skiselkov.ml at
gmail.com>wrote:
> 
>> On 10/25/2012 04:11 PM, Sa?o Kiselkov wrote:
>>> On 10/25/2012 04:09 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 25 Oct 2012, Sa?o Kiselkov wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Look for Dell''s "6Gbps SAS HBA" cards.
They can be had new for <$100
>> and
>>>>> are essentially rebranded LSI 9200-8e cards. Always try to
look for OEM
>>>>> cards with LSI, because buying directly from them is
incredibly
>>>>> expensive.
>>>>
>>>> Do these support eSATA?  It seems unlikely.
>>>
>>> eSATA is just SATA with a different connector - all you need is a
cheap
>>> conversion cable or appropriate eSATA<->SATA bracket, e.g.
>>> http://www.satacables.com/html/sata-pci-brackets.html
>>
>> P.S. if you''re going to use a port conversion bracket, I
suggest you get
>> the internal version of the SAS card (i.e. the Dell PERC H200) - that
>> ships with two SFF-8087 connectors. Get a SFF-8087 breakout cable to
>> split out the individual SATA connections (e.g.
>> http://www.ipcdirect.net/catalog/c-sff8087-4sb.jpg ) and just hook
those
>> up to the SATA<->eSATA bracket. From there on you can take it
using
>> standard eSATA cabling directly to your JBOD.
>>
> 
> You could also do something like converting an 8087 to an 8088 and get an
> 8088 <-> 4x eSATA breakout cable. That would save a lot of space in
your
> case if you''re going to have more than 8 drives in this rig.
Random
> googling: http://www.pc-pitstop.com/sas_cables_adapters/AD8788-2.asp and
>
http://www.amazon.com/HighPoint-External-Mini-SAS-SFF8088-Ext-MS-1MES/dp/B000JQ51CM
> or
> something.
Nice, good to know that mini-SAS to eSATA cables exist. Thanks for the
info, you learn something new every day.

Cheers,
--
Saso

On Thu, 25 Oct 2012, Sa?o Kiselkov wrote:
> On 10/25/2012 04:09 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Oct 2012, Sa?o Kiselkov wrote:
>>>
>>> Look for Dell''s "6Gbps SAS HBA" cards. They can
be had new for <$100 and
>>> are essentially rebranded LSI 9200-8e cards. Always try to look for
OEM
>>> cards with LSI, because buying directly from them is incredibly
>>> expensive.
>>
>> Do these support eSATA?  It seems unlikely.
>
> eSATA is just SATA with a different connector - all you need is a cheap
> conversion cable or appropriate eSATA<->SATA bracket, e.g.
> http://www.satacables.com/html/sata-pci-brackets.html
While this can certainly work, according to Wikipedia 
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esata#eSATA), eSATA is more than just 
SATA with a different connector.  eSATA specifies a higher voltage 
range (minimum voltage) than SATA.  It may be that a HBA already uses 
this range, or maybe not.  Text I read says that maximum cable length 
is significantly reduced if an adaptor is used.

Also, I am curious to know how well hot-swap works with an 
enterprise-class SAS HBA and these cheap eSATA adaptors.

Bob
-- 
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/

On 10/25/2012 05:40 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2012, Sa?o Kiselkov wrote:
> 
>> On 10/25/2012 04:09 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
>>> On Thu, 25 Oct 2012, Sa?o Kiselkov wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Look for Dell''s "6Gbps SAS HBA" cards. They
can be had new for <$100
>>>> and
>>>> are essentially rebranded LSI 9200-8e cards. Always try to look
for OEM
>>>> cards with LSI, because buying directly from them is incredibly
>>>> expensive.
>>>
>>> Do these support eSATA?  It seems unlikely.
>>
>> eSATA is just SATA with a different connector - all you need is a cheap
>> conversion cable or appropriate eSATA<->SATA bracket, e.g.
>> http://www.satacables.com/html/sata-pci-brackets.html
> 
> While this can certainly work, according to Wikipedia
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esata#eSATA), eSATA is more than just SATA
> with a different connector.  eSATA specifies a higher voltage range
> (minimum voltage) than SATA.  It may be that a HBA already uses this
> range, or maybe not.  Text I read says that maximum cable length is
> significantly reduced if an adaptor is used.
> 
> Also, I am curious to know how well hot-swap works with an
> enterprise-class SAS HBA and these cheap eSATA adaptors.
It may be that you''ll get reduced cabling range (only up to SATA
lengths, obviously), but it works. The voltage differences are very
small and should only come into play when you''re pushing the envelope
of
the cable length.

Cheers,
--
Saso

On 10/25/2012 11:44 AM, Sa?o Kiselkov wrote:
>
> It may be that you''ll get reduced cabling range (only up to SATA
> lengths, obviously), but it works. The voltage differences are very
> small and should only come into play when you''re pushing the
envelope of
> the cable length.
>    
I have a two-drive esata hot swap box I use for monthly zfs backups.  
Target disk is a WD black 1TB.  The enclosure takes an esata connector, 
so I had to get a sata/esata gender adapter to allow me to plug one of 
the sata connectors on my 8087 forward breakout cable into it.  It''s 
only 18 inches long or so, and I''ve never had any issues at all.

Hello Bob,

Thanks for the SIIG pointer, most of the stuff I had archived from this
list pointed to LSI products.

I poked around on the site and reviewed SIIG''s SATA and SAS HBA.  I
also
hit up their search engine.  I''m not implying I did an all inclusive
search, but nothing I came across on their site indicated any type of
Solaris or *Solaris distro support.

Did I miss something on the site?  Or maybe one of their sales people
let you know this stuff worked with Solaris?  Or should it "just work"
as long as it meets SAS or SATA standards?

Thanks again for your reply,

Jerry Kemp




On 10/25/12 09:09 AM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2012, Sa?o Kiselkov wrote:
>>
>> Look for Dell''s "6Gbps SAS HBA" cards. They can be
had new for <$100 and
>> are essentially rebranded LSI 9200-8e cards. Always try to look for OEM
>> cards with LSI, because buying directly from them is incredibly
>> expensive.
> 
> Do these support eSATA?  It seems unlikely.
> 
> I purchased an eSATA card (from SIIG, http://www.siig.com/) with the
> intention to try it with Solaris 10 to see if it would work but have not
> tried plugging it in yet.
> 
> It seems likely that a numer of cheap eSATA cards may work.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> zfs-discuss mailing list
> zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

I''ve been using this card

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816117157

for my Solaris/Open Indiana installations because it has 8 ports.  One of the
issues that this card seems to have, is that certain failures can cause other
secondary problems in other drives on the same SAS connector.  I use mirrors for
my storage machines with 4 pairs, and just put half the mirror on one side and
the other drive on the other side.  This, in general, has solved my problems. 
When a drive fails, I might see more than one drive no functioning.  I can
remove (I use hot swap bays such as
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817994097) a drive, and
restore the other to the pool to find which of the failed drives is actually the
problem.  What had happened before, was that my case was not moving enough air,
and the hot drives had caused odd problems with failure.

For the money, and the experience I have with these controllers, I''d
still use them, they are 3GBs controllers.  If you want 6GBs controllers, then
some of the other suggestions might be a better choice for you.

Gregg

On Oct 24, 2012, at 10:59 PM, Jerry Kemp <sun.mail.list47 at oryx.cc>
wrote:
> I have just acquired a new JBOD box that will be used as a media
> center/storage for home use only on my x86/x64 box running OpenIndiana
> b151a7 currently.
> 
> Its strictly a JBOD, no hw raid options, with an eSATA port to each drive.
> 
> I am looking for suggestions for an HBA card with at least (2), but (4)
> external eSATA ports would be nice.  I know enough to stay away from the
> port expander things.
> 
> I do not need the HBA to support any internal drives.
> 
> In reviewing the archives/past post, it seems that LSI is the way to go.
> I would like to spend USD $200 - $300, but would spend more if
> necessary for a good, trouble free HBA.  I made this comment as I went
> to look at some of the LSI cards previously mentioned, and found they
> were priced $500 - $600 and up.
> 
> TIA for any pointers,
> 
> Jerry
> _______________________________________________
> zfs-discuss mailing list
> zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

On Fri, 26 Oct 2012, Jerry Kemp wrote:
>
> Thanks for the SIIG pointer, most of the stuff I had archived from this
> list pointed to LSI products.
>
> I poked around on the site and reviewed SIIG''s SATA and SAS HBA. 
I also
> hit up their search engine.  I''m not implying I did an all
inclusive
> search, but nothing I came across on their site indicated any type of
> Solaris or *Solaris distro support.
What is important is if Solaris supports the card.  I have no idea if 
Solaris supports any of their cards.
> Did I miss something on the site?  Or maybe one of their sales people
> let you know this stuff worked with Solaris?  Or should it "just
work"
> as long as it meets SAS or SATA standards?
They might not even know what Solaris is.  Actually, they might since 
this outfit previously made the USB/FireWire combo card used in SPARC 
and Intel Sun workstations.  It seems likely that SATA boards would 
work if they support the standard AHCI interface.  I would not take 
any chance with unknown SAS.

Bob
-- 
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/

Thanks for everyone''s comments.

I went ahead and have placed an order for one of these, based on the
comments provided.  I did order it through Amazon instead of newegg.com.

I will do a summary once the part arrives, and I have it installed in my
system.

Jerry




On 10/26/12 10:02 AM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
> I''ve been using this card
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816117157
> 
> for my Solaris/Open Indiana installations because it has 8 ports.
> One
of the issues that this card seems to have, is that certain failures can
cause other secondary problems in other drives on the same SAS
connector. I use mirrors for my storage machines with 4 pairs, and just
put half the mirror on one side and the other drive on the other side.
This, in general, has solved my problems. When a drive fails, I might
see more than one drive no functioning. I can remove (I use hot swap
bays such as
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817994097) a
drive, and restore the other to the pool to find which of the failed
drives is actually the problem. What had happened before, was that my
case was not moving enough air, and the hot drives had caused odd
problems with failure.
> 
> For the money, and the experience I have with these controllers,
I''d
still use them, they are 3GBs controllers. If you want 6GBs controllers,
then some of the other suggestions might be a better choice for you.
> Gregg
>

Hello Gregg,

I acquired one of these

Intel RAID Controller Card SATA/SAS PCI-E x8 8internal ports (SASUC8I)

from your newegg link below, and then acquired the necessary cables to
get everything hooked up.  After multiple executions of devfsadm and
reconfigure boots, the OS see''s one of my 4 drives.  The drives are 2
TB
Seagate drives.

Did you need to do anything special to get your card to work correctly?
 Did you need to do a firmware upgrade or anything?

I am running an up-to-date version of OpenIndiana b151a7.

Thank you,

Jerry




On 10/26/12 10:02 AM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
> I''ve been using this card
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816117157
> 
> for my Solaris/Open Indiana installations because it has 8 ports.  One of
the issues that this card seems to have, is that certain failures can cause
other secondary problems in other drives on the same SAS connector.  I use
mirrors for my storage machines with 4 pairs, and just put half the mirror on
one side and the other drive on the other side.  This, in general, has solved my
problems.  When a drive fails, I might see more than one drive no functioning. 
I can remove (I use hot swap bays such as
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817994097) a drive, and
restore the other to the pool to find which of the failed drives is actually the
problem.  What had happened before, was that my case was not moving enough air,
and the hot drives had caused odd problems with failure.
> 
> For the money, and the experience I have with these controllers,
I''d still use them, they are 3GBs controllers.  If you want 6GBs
controllers, then some of the other suggestions might be a better choice for
you.
> 
> Gregg
>

I have seen some drives not be recognized on a hot plug, but cfgadm seemed to
always fix that.

I don''t recall a cold boot not recognizing the drives.  Does the bios
boot of the card show all of the drives connected?

I did not update the firmware in the cards that I bought.

Gregg

On Nov 19, 2012, at 10:45 AM, Jerry Kemp <sun.mail.list47 at oryx.cc>
wrote:
> Hello Gregg,
> 
> I acquired one of these
> 
> Intel RAID Controller Card SATA/SAS PCI-E x8 8internal ports (SASUC8I)
> 
> from your newegg link below, and then acquired the necessary cables to
> get everything hooked up.  After multiple executions of devfsadm and
> reconfigure boots, the OS see''s one of my 4 drives.  The drives
are 2 TB
> Seagate drives.
> 
> Did you need to do anything special to get your card to work correctly?
> Did you need to do a firmware upgrade or anything?
> 
> I am running an up-to-date version of OpenIndiana b151a7.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/26/12 10:02 AM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
>> I''ve been using this card
>> 
>> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816117157
>> 
>> for my Solaris/Open Indiana installations because it has 8 ports.  One
of the issues that this card seems to have, is that certain failures can cause
other secondary problems in other drives on the same SAS connector.  I use
mirrors for my storage machines with 4 pairs, and just put half the mirror on
one side and the other drive on the other side.  This, in general, has solved my
problems.  When a drive fails, I might see more than one drive no functioning. 
I can remove (I use hot swap bays such as
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817994097) a drive, and
restore the other to the pool to find which of the failed drives is actually the
problem.  What had happened before, was that my case was not moving enough air,
and the hot drives had caused odd problems with failure.
>> 
>> For the money, and the experience I have with these controllers,
I''d still use them, they are 3GBs controllers.  If you want 6GBs
controllers, then some of the other suggestions might be a better choice for
you.
>> 
>> Gregg
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> zfs-discuss mailing list
> zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Hi Jerry,

Couple of things that might help you troubleshoot your Intel SASUC8I HBA:

1. Are you seeing all the 8 devices in the BIOS for the card?
2. If yes, do other operating systems (say a Linux LiveCD) see all the disks
too?
3. Is there any difference between the disks (e.g. four 2TB Seagate SATA2 and
four 2TB Seagate SATA3)?
4. Can you double check which four disks are showing up? If you swap the SAS
cables is it the same four?
Check by printing SAS WWNs of your devices: 
#prtconf -v |grep -A 1 wwn |grep value

If only OI is missing the extra disks (yes to #1 and #2) then a firmware update
might help.  Since that intel card is just a rebadge of the LSI 3801E as an
alternative to just updating to the newest Intel IT/IR firmware, you also have
the option of flashing the LSI IT firmware which is optimal for use with ZFS
(since you don''t need any integrated RAID), it should work fine with
whatever firmware Intel provides though.
http://www.servethehome.com/flashing-intel-sasuc8i-lsi-firmware-guide/

Thanks
-Pete

On Nov 19, 2012, at 11:45 AM, Jerry Kemp wrote:
> Hello Gregg,
> 
> I acquired one of these
> 
> Intel RAID Controller Card SATA/SAS PCI-E x8 8internal ports (SASUC8I)
> 
> from your newegg link below, and then acquired the necessary cables to
> get everything hooked up.  After multiple executions of devfsadm and
> reconfigure boots, the OS see''s one of my 4 drives.  The drives
are 2 TB
> Seagate drives.
> 
> Did you need to do anything special to get your card to work correctly?
> Did you need to do a firmware upgrade or anything?
> 
> I am running an up-to-date version of OpenIndiana b151a7.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/26/12 10:02 AM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
>> I''ve been using this card
>> 
>> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816117157
>> 
>> for my Solaris/Open Indiana installations because it has 8 ports.  One
of the issues that this card seems to have, is that certain failures can cause
other secondary problems in other drives on the same SAS connector.  I use
mirrors for my storage machines with 4 pairs, and just put half the mirror on
one side and the other drive on the other side.  This, in general, has solved my
problems.  When a drive fails, I might see more than one drive no functioning. 
I can remove (I use hot swap bays such as
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817994097) a drive, and
restore the other to the pool to find which of the failed drives is actually the
problem.  What had happened before, was that my case was not moving enough air,
and the hot drives had caused odd problems with failure.
>> 
>> For the money, and the experience I have with these controllers,
I''d still use them, they are 3GBs controllers.  If you want 6GBs
controllers, then some of the other suggestions might be a better choice for
you.
>> 
>> Gregg
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> zfs-discuss mailing list
> zfs-discuss at opensolaris.org
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
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